Terminators

[Charly]

'space marines' is a pretty general term tho. this is the flavour text from the thunder hammer entry in the wargear book, 'this is a weapon used by terminator space marines and is normally used in conjuction with a storm shield. the thunder hammer is a large hammer with a power generator which energises only when the hammer strikes its target. this allows the weapon to store a tremendous amount of energy and release it only at the moment of impact, producing a terrific blast of energy and a sound like a crack of thunder. were it not for his terminator armour the space marine himself would probably be knocked over by the impact.'

[tturen]

Indeed that is what is says. Consider though that if its wargear ordinary marines would not carry it. Only the most powerful among the marines would get the option. If the model range and new rules allow it it is a change worth considering.

[Charly]

the new models have them on veteran space marines yeah? which to my knowledge are still only strength 4, and wear power armour, so essentially theres no difference between a normal marine that would be knocked flying. in the case of characters etc who have higher strength im not sure what effect user strength has on a thunder hammer as it is the same whatever strength u are. its just a case of being able to stop the rebound. could say u have to be strength 5 or above to weild those weapons maybe? no doubt it will lead to captains of death. or for example i could take a hero level chaplain with a thunder hammer for around 100 points, quite cheap really.

[El Capitan]

The absolute terror of my frenzied thunder hammering dreadnought raining down 6 attacks on lukes vehicles squad was one to remember. But thats a very easilly avoided attack if you can see it coming. However back to the captaine xample I used above, this seems massively powerful, the Thunder Hammer is the most powerful weapon going pretty much!

What about the creation of a cut down version, one for power armoured troops? Dare I say it....'A Power Hammer'? + 1 Str over double handed power axe, charcters only due to rarity etc

[Charly]

power hammer would be ok yeah, so strength 8? say -4 save? 9pts? just make it a wargear card. what about the lightning claw issue? just keep them the same i spose, down side its a pair so cant have guns etc.

[tturen]

I don't see the point in having a 'power hammer' as wargear. Why would it be taken at all if a power fist is a better weapon and doesn't consume a wargear slot?

[El Capitan]

I meant as a new entry into the wargear list.

Also, i've never seena thunder hammer wargear card, and we have 5+ sets of 2nd ed and 4 and a bit Dark Millenium's

[Adoni-Zedek]

Probably just an error in the BattleBible then. One more to patch up.

Anyone play Dawn of War? How about a Daemon Hammer? (In Dawn of War, the Daemon Hammer was better than a thunderhammer, but only the power-armored capt. could take it. based on 3rd Ed, though)

What kind of stats? Naturally it will be a wargear card, probably a force weapon as well. Capable of storing force cards? maybe not (psyker only in that case). So maybe a thunderhammer that ignores daemonic auras? Say Inquisitor or Space Marine Capt. only? 15 pts?

[El Capitan]

Space marine Captain only does sound intriguing. Ever noticed how a master Chaplian is like a Captain but better? Differentation is needed and some equipment such as a 'thunder hammer' could do the trick, providing he isnt jump packing!

[Adoni-Zedek]

You're taking all the fun out of characters, Mike. They've got these great ballistic skills, but they (mostly) can't take heavy weapons (two eldar heroes and one tyranid character). So really, they're only going to make up their points in close combat.

They excell at close combat, but now they can't take jumppacks along with an effective close combat weapon? What then are they good for? Being a required point-sink to lead your army?

What good's this Daemonhammer if you can't get it into combat?

[Charly]

they can have jump packs. or you can use a rhino/land raider to get them into combat. the ogc rules try to make the focus of the game on the infantry, not beardy characters with weapons of doom.

[James 40K Champ ***]

They way characters impact on our games is primarily in a command role, and also placed in the right place they will tip the tables in favour of a their commanders army.

They shouldnt be flying around the table knocking thru squad after squad.

[Charly]

yeah exactly, they should be used tactically within the context of the army, like boosting leadership, or for backup in combat if a unit gets charged etc.

[tturen]

So under OGC leaders aren't built in the hero mode? I suppose thats fine but it does reorient the game. The genre of 40k in general has leaders doing heroic and horrific things to enemy units. I tend to like that myself but then I have always enjoyed killing heavily tooled points sinks. There are only a limited number of occasions when a wargear laden model can even earn his points back in the first place and to do so he needs the mobility of a jump pack, a bike, or combat drugs (Eldar excepted...). Given that he can't charge from moving Rhino is a severe limitation to this mode of transport.

I just don't see any issues with a Thunder Hammer armed commander with a jump pack. Makeing the weapon Commander only wargear is most agreable. This way he has already used up two slots of wargear and doesn't even have a field yet. 15 points sounds great.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Chars still make a difference in squad on squad combat.. just means they dont whipe out 5 people every turn

[Charly]

i thought we agreed that the thunder hammer is a terminator only weapon? a captain in terminator armour could have one. cant have a normal captain dealing 4 auto wounds or blowing a tank up with ease. its quite rare in ogc that we actually see ppl taking any wargear at all. and then its usually a refractor field or something to use up some spare points.

[tturen]

Kill 5 a turn? I can see 4 in a full turn after both players CC phases if the character is fighting packed troops but most of the time its 2 a turn and he still has to assault the closest model. I tend to feed characters grunts if they want to charge or simply overwatch with a few bolters. Not much to worry abour really.

Thunder hammers are by rule terminator only. The thing is GW is now building models in power armor with them. Games like Winter Assualt also have them on power armored commanders. All of this is why is might be reasonable to allow it now in 2nd Ed. Commanders only of course!

[Charly]

4th edition also has tanks that cant move faster than troops. grenades that let you strike first in combat. and template weapons that can go round corners.

[Simon]

I'd say go for the Daemon Hammer option. It could be made interesting if you had it at strength 6, never wounds on worse than a 4+, D3 damage (doubled against Daemons), two handed weapon in combat, say a -3 save and no daemonic auras can save against it. Make it a wargear card and have it Space Marine/Grey Knights Captains and Inquisitors only.

Sound ok??

If so, how many points? I'd go for 15-20 points...

[James 40K Champ ***]

sounds well steep!