Terminators

[Laharl]

i hate terminators, especially when they have more assault cannons that you can shake a stick at, me won't play aginst terminators until i get a hellhound or two

[El Capitan]

Thats quite an intersting direction to take actually..limit the effectiveness of terminators by making them better...at a price. Im actually quite taken by it. It would stop assault cannons of doom rolling out but would also make terminators feel like veteran death warriors.

[James 40K Champ ***]

stronger!!!? eeeek

[James 40K Champ ***]

Perhaps, but I dont think you should be able to have any more than 2 heavy weapons per 5.

[tturen]

In the case of Wolves three HW's per term squad would even be plenty. Besides thats the total number of HW armed termi's I own.

My point on Wolf Guard termi's though is that every time I look at two of them I see about enough points for a Predator. As a result if I'm playing against Wolve's I like to see terminators and if I'm using them instead I tend to use one 5 man squad to keep the cost down. If they were more expensive I can't say I'd ever use them at all even with the stats Adoni gives them.

On the other hand our Chaos player uses termi's by the dozen because they are tough, cheapand get two attacks for Chaos not to mention that Abbadon so loves them...

[Adoni-Zedek]

I've converted my termies by adding bayonets to their ranged weapons (even the targeter for the cyclone), so they can have one extra attack in close combat. Even basic terminators really ought to have this, as otherwise they get only one attack die, with no parries. Hardly feels like an elite force.

Got the knives from the 2nd Ed plastic backpack/bolter sprues, and simply cut of the handle. It looks nice and clean, the way imperial forces should (in my opinion anyway)

You'd like my termies, laharl. They currently have Thunderhammers and Storm Shields, no Assault cannons at all. But you'd still better watch out if they get within 8" of your Hellhounds. Thunder Hammers auto-penetrate.....

And when I do take an assault cannon, the model runs me 132 points. Not going to be fielding those en mass.

[El Capitan]

I thought you meant termagants for a moment
On your point about the extra attack, Chaos Terminators already have this built into their points cost + a terminator with 2 lightning claws would have 2 str. 8 attacks with 2 parries! (under our cc rules, that parries are re-rolls for misses in cc - we had it as re-roll enemy attack dice but that was far too effective)

[Adoni-Zedek]

Termagants with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields!!!! Run and cower fools, for all the good it will do you!!!! MWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!!!!!

Man, that'd REALLY suck!

Most terminators have a storm bolter and a powerfist, and so get only one attack. Adding a bayonet to the stormbolter gives you a second one, in case you get parried. Not really needed if parries reroll your own attacks, but they are supposed to be a defensive move, rather than an offesive one. In your house rules, it's probably not so critical to have that extra attack, since it can't be blocked. In my house rules, parries still let you force an opponent to reroll, so that one extra attack can make a huge difference for the Emperor's Finest.

[El Capitan]

We changed the combat rules purely for the concept of speed, many a tall man has been reduced to tears looking at a combat involving 20 or so opponents all mixed up together, so much so that some people just used to say that 'all are dead' to hurry things along.
But thats jsut an evolution of our rules to go with our group (though I strongly recommend our amendments as it allows effective close counter attacks and makes fitting assualts into a plan more tactical + its much much quicker for mass combats!). We kept the parry as a re-roll of an enemy atatck but it proved far more powerful than in the previous rules. In the end we lumped for a re-roll of your own attack, on the basis that it was simply a parry of an enemy attack allowing for a counter-strike, a bit more technical but it works nicely in the game.

[Adoni-Zedek]

My house rules for close combat: Attack in order of initiative. Charging: +2 bonus, +1 A
Charged in cover: +3 bonus
On higher ground: +1 bonus

To determine hits, you roll on a table similar to the Str/Tuff table.

An attacker needs:

Defender's WS:
--- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
- 1 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
- 2 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6
- 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 6
- 4 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6
- 5 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6
- 6 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6
- 7 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6
- 8 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5
- 9 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5
10 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4

This keeps the simplicity of 3rd/4th, while still placing a greater emphasis on WS, as in 2nd Ed. I'm not perfectly happy with it, but it works well enough.

I'm thinking of allowing Wraithguard and Eldar dreadnoughts an option of "blocking" their opponents' attacks if there are no living eldar on the board. They automatically attack first, but each hit simply blocks one of their opponents' attacks, instead of inflicting damage. This keeps in line with allowing them to defend themselves, but not to inflict damage. I thought this might be cool to allow to anyone, but I realized it would greatly lessen the effectiveness of close combat troops. So Eldar Wraithguard and dreadnoughts get it only while retreating to their table edge when no living eldar are present.

[James 40K Champ ***]

We use the Fantasy cc system more or less.

It means one side strikes, then the other strikes back.. rather than rolling loads of attacks and having to work out the winner.

[Adoni-Zedek]

That's pretty much how my system works, just with a different table to emphasize Weapon Skill a bit more

Do units strike simultaneously? If not, how do you determine who strikes first? How do you guys handle Dreadnoughts and Wraithguard left all alone? Or has that ever happened?

[James 40K Champ ***]

If you charge u strike 1st, if already in combat, its in order of inititive.

If you survive being attacked, you attack back.

Attacking is roll to hit however many attacks you have, then roll to wound blah blah

[tturen]

I agree given the cost of terminators all of them should have two attacks.

As far as the combat system goes though I'm staying with the original.

[James 40K Champ ***]

If you want more powerful attacks thou, you can opt for chain fists or a pair of lightening claws..

[Adoni-Zedek]

Yeah, my terminators never have powerfists. Well, actually they do, but only because I hate the look of the chain fists. So in my Chapter, all terminator powerfists actually work (and cost) like chainfists. Don't worry, though. Power armor marines still get regular power fists.

What's the consensus of letting marines in power armor take lightning claws, now that the new mini's sport them? Perhaps as a wargear card, like with thunderhammers?

[El Capitan]

Im be against it, whatever game workshop produces. I imagine a power armoured marine hitting something with a thinder hammer and exploding himself.

As a wargear card is at least intriuging, but think of the horror of a captain with jump pack, frenzon and a thunder hammer!

[tturen]

If we are talking about wargear I have no real issues with those weapons on power armored models. Its one less slot that could be used for somthing even worse and well they look good on the models.

[Charly]

i fink lightning claws wud b ok as wargear, but deffinatly not thunder hammers, im sure its in the background somewhere that only terminator armour is strong enough to weild them. terminators with lightning claws and thunder hammers are my new fav unit! can be so much more effective than just using them as an assualt cannon on legs.

[Adoni-Zedek]

Actually, the wargear card for Thunderhammers says Space Marines and Squats only. So straight 2nd Ed allows it on power armor, and actually on carapace armor as well (squats).