Large Targets

[zippysguitar]

Although eldar war walkers are tall, they arent actually a huge target to hit. The legs are tall and slim which arent exactly easy to hit and the body is only large if u look straight on at it, but smaller sideways.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Dont forget that slightly larger model (eg Dreads) dont nescesarily need adverse rules to affect how well the can be shot at.. a model on foot is never going to find it hard to find at least some light cover if not heavy.. where as a larger model like a dread or a monster is almost always out in the open.. so in effect, they are already easier to hit..

A decent player is going to bring this into his game plan.. if your facing an avatar say, so what if its no easier to hit, manouver so that it has to come at you accross relitivly barron terrain.. jobs a good 'un

[tturen]

All true as is the reality that big things are easier to hit than small things. In this case I find that the latter piece of reality helps the game.

[Simon]

Thing is, when you fire at a large target, you fire at one of them (rarely a large group...) yet you target a whople squad of infantry. You hardly need to take time to aim properly in that situation, the infantry models you'd just be spraying against, compared to a more accurate shot needed for a Large target. The issue though was simply the definition. I can prove to you how small a carnifex is (only the claws make it appear larger than it is) but my usb ports on my pc aren't working.

[Charly]

erm wot was the arguament again? carnifex isnt a large target.. its monsterous, ie u can see it and pick it out over none monsterous things.

[El Capitan]

no.......it was getting +1 to hit anything taller than a marine. Because tyrandis have eveloved to be bright pink with giant targets on them

[tturen]

Weapons fire in 40k is based on hitting individual models. Thats what all the to hit rolls are based on. Squad size (a huge varriable in and of itself) is irrelivent to the mechanics.

That last post is pretty sensless.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that a Carni is just about the largest creature in 40k. Its simple common sense that a Carni is a much easier target to hit than a Gretchin. Now the rules as written do not make a distinction between the two in terms of to hit rolls. In terms of realism however they should do so. Its for this reason that anything larger than a Dread in our groups rules is +1 to hit. A Carni is clearly larger than this.

[El Capitan]

I still don't get why you wont apply the rule to the war walker though, that thing would step on my house!

[James 40K Champ ***]

There is no real call for +1 to hit on large targets, the simple fact they are too large to utilise cover as well as a man sized model, and the fact they cannot be screened already makes them plenty easy enough to hit in the first place.

In your rules, a Hive tyrant is going to be at +2 or +3 to hit over a smaller minature which isnt likely to have no cover what so ever.. but whatever turns you on

[Charly]

lol mod tyranids!! must make rocker brood...

[El Capitan]

hehe

sorry i was bein overly sarcastic, not a good debate technique

[tturen]

"I still don't get why you wont apply the rule to the war walker though, that thing would step on my house!"

Agreed, I would apply it to all walkers myself but our group over ruled that one.

"There is no real call for +1 to hit on large targets, the simple fact they are too large to utilise cover as well as a man sized model, and the fact they cannot be screened already makes them plenty easy enough to hit in the first place."

The call is just common sense. Big stuff is easier to hit than small stuff. That reality.

Besides we have no shortage of cover for large targets and in the case of Nids that cover and their speed makes them tough targets even compared to slower small models.

All vehicles and large targets can be screened by cheaper vehicles (Bikes) or cheaper large targets (Warriors).

Besides this helps balance the vehicles and such in the game system. OGC already limits them in other ways.

[Simon]

Here is my point. Put it in across the board if you are going to do it, don't just be silly and say this and that without looking at the models. Here....







that is my point. A carnifex hardly has anything over a crisis suit in terms of size, a hive tyrant is actually smaller (only just)

[tturen]

The gold standard under our rules is the Dreadnought. Last time I looked the Carni was bigger than that. Part of this is a mass issue.

For an apples to apples comparison try the newest models in the both ranges. GW has been prone to model size creep. The Crisis suit pictured is far larger than it should be given the basic rules for the unit and suffers from GW model creep. Its also smaller than a dreadnought but not by much.

When models suffer from size creep we tend to use the original 2nd Ed sizes. If produced under 2nd Ed the crissis would be far smaller given its weak stat line (IE power armour in 3rd/4th). Those models are just stupidly large. Damn GW again.

[Simon]

A dreadnought is more massive than a carnifex though. It's like a darned brick. The carnifex is a lot less bulky than people imagine. You play 2nd Ed. so your comparisons should be for 2nd Ed. models. Dread vs carnifex in this case would produce similar facts to those above. You either put that rule in across the board or flat out scrap it and leave it to things that really are bigger than a dread as it is completely unfair to do it to one race and not another with visual comparison, and since when have warriors been cheap for the 'nids?

The crisis suit would have been the same size, it matches up to a nid warrior fairly well in terms of in game comparison, so you can't even pick it apart there. They are not weak, they have a lot of potential.

[tturen]

A Carni's targetable cross section is significantly larger than a space marine dreadnought. The multiple arms are targetable parts of the model giving it huge target cross section. A Dread doesn't even come close to that. Rip the arms off and you have case.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Well this is another agree to disagree situation, we can both see the different sides to the argument, and it pretty much comes down to personal choice and like tturen said, what works for the group.

On a side note, I would of imagined the crisis suits to be somewhere between terminator and the new stlye imperial sentinels.. size wise anyway

[LukeG]

A Carnifex is far more manouverable then a dreadnought, in addition to how little bulk it has and the irrelevence of kranging the end of one claw with a bolter.

[tturen]

More manuverable doesn't apply in the game system but speed does and it is slower. Its also a bulky target and even a carni isn't going to shrug off laz cannon hits to the arm any better than a dread does. In fact the arms on a carni are bigger than some entire models.

[Adoni-Zedek]

Well, a carnifex is slower than an Eldar dreadnought(M8), but can keep right up with any other dread(M6). Walkers are limited in their turning (free 90 degree turns at beginning and end of movement, each 90 degrees during movement costs 1" of their move), but a carnifex is not, being just as manueverable as a howling banshee (M6, I6). It can even hide, if there's sufficient cover (assuming I'm remembering my Tyranid Codex properly).