Large Targets

[tturen]

Say just what do you guys qaulify as large targets?

In our group any vehicle larger than a dreadnought gets a large target bonus of +1 to hit when its fired at. The targeting bonus has also been applied to Tyranid monsterous creatures as well in the past in our group but I'm pretty sure thats not what GW had in mind.

[El Capitan]

tyranid monsters is goin a bit far :/ they dont exactly stand upright all the time and could even crawl so who knows how much youd really be able tosee (unless perhaps they were completely in the open)

we use the rulebook description of land raider and above generally. I can see the point of predators but it takes away one oft he bonuses of a pred over a land raider

[Simon]

Tyranid warriors becoming Large Targets is actually ridiculous (as you explained it has to be bigger than a dreadnought). I've always thought of it as Land Raider and above in size. Big things can get singled out anyway (and skirmish screens for them are expensive as well) with no need to punish them further.

[tturen]

The 'official' rule is anything Landraider sized or larger. So even a Predator is not a 'large' target in terms of to hit bonuses. That seems rather absurd though and we qualify any vehicle larger than a dread instead.

By implication for Nids that would cover only Hive Tyrants and Carni's as +1 bonus targets. To me that seems fair enough. Opinions?

[Simon]

That is only conceivable with the new models, and even then they are not that big as to warrant the plus to hit. To cover a hive tyrant (which is expensive for it's capabilities anyway) you need the warriors which are expensive, and with a +1 to hit on the tyrant/carnifex, you are implying that it is a separate target class. I actually believe in the rulebook as written for the large target rules. Tanks have a hard time with getting into cover, same for large nids, basically needing a permanent bodyguard to keep it alive or be stood behing a very large piece of scenery as it is. Don't punish them even more!

[tturen]

Under the rules as written only one tank is a +1 target and that is the Raider (a Russ could be as well I suppose).

Its simple logic that big things are easier to hit than small things. The game should reflect this.

Drawing the line at dreadnought sized targets is already a break for such a big model. Tyranids should not be an exception if a rule like this is to employed as they will certainly reap the advantage of a +1 to hit all tanks not just raiders. Nids models like Tyrants (Who I believe are larger than dreds regardless of edition) and Carni's can still hide and are easier to find cover for than tanks. The warriors as well in almost all cases with Nids will be closer to the enemy anyway and must still be targeted first.

There is no implied seperate target class. The rules as written do not allow a Raider to fired at if a bike is the closest target. This does not change. Nor does the monster base target rule.

As I understand it all of you who have replied only apply the +1 to Landraiders. Not even Predators and such get a +1 to hit then. Even with the +1 to hit the best tank in the game is still the Predator. Its certainly my tank of choice and a target that is much easier to hit than an infantry man. The game system as written already overpowers big stuff the target bonus doesn't change this but it does help a bit.

Heres another change worth considering: All basic troops rapid fire when stationary (May not utelize sustained fire dice). Marines fire 3 times.

[Simon]

The problem is that a Hive tyrant and carnifex are classed as dreadnought sized models. A carnifex IS described as the closest thing to a dread that the nids have. Dreadnoughts themselves are subjective for that rule as well. If all dreads qualify then you are simply punishing the nids for no good reason. Carnifexes would never appear in my armies as I'd basically just have to buy an extra squad of warriors to counter the rule there. Otherwise it would be a guaranteed death, giving away a couple of VPs. The problem with the tanks is that it pretty much covers all tanks in the game which are all manouvreable units that would still be hard to hit. Big things suffer in general (they need to be protected by something alike and cannot get any cover almost all the time).

Basic troops rapid firing if stationary stops movement for a lot of units. The game would run the risk of becoming static (and close combat units would disappear from some people's armies). It's like saying, let's do triple the move value for a charge rather than just double it.

[El Capitan]

See the monstrous target rules in CODEX Chaos and Tyranids

[tturen]

Nids are not 'punished' under the +1 to hit rule. In fact all armies play by the same common sense rule that is: If its big its easier to hit. Period.

Their is no question that a Carni is a BIG model. Much larger and bulkier than a dreadnought. He's the closest thing the Nids have to a tank. Common sense makes him a +1 target. The fact that he walks like dread does not make him as small as one. You can argue about the Tyrant. If I had the model I'd stack him up against a Marind dread and check myself. The +1 to hit rule is about the PHYSICAL SIZE of the model.

Frankly we have always used this rule. It has a fairly nuetral impact across all armies. We see no shortage of Carni's and they have no need for 'extra' warrior squads to defend them. Just as Tanks do not require 'extra' bikes and such to defend them either.

"The problem with the tanks is that it pretty much covers all tanks in the game which are all manouvreable units that would still be hard to hit."

The tyranids are not an exception to this. In fact they are much easier to move at speed and find cover for than tanks. Carni's in particular have a gift for moveing at speeds that provide -1 to hit while finding cover as well. Theirs also the reality that tanks moving at speed are vulnerable indeed to collisions and that terrain often prevents them from moveing at speed in the first place. Its simply dangerous for tanks to attempt to use speed as armour. Tyranids do not suffer these problems.

As an IG player I can assure you that manouver is often a poor tactical option (for the IG anyway) and that most vehicles themselves are undervalued points wise in the game system. That +1 to hit all my IG tanks certainly did not keep me from takeing them or force me to move them at speed to keep them alive. Not much beats an IG pillbox...err Russ. Big things rule 40k. Thats a problem in the first place.

"Basic troops rapid firing if stationary stops movement for a lot of units. "

Yes, that could happen and as you mention CC units would suffer. A rule change like that would require other alterations as well to avoid some of these issues.

"See the monstrous target rules in CODEX Chaos and Tyranids"

The +1 to hit overly large targets does not change the choosing a target rules in either codex. It just applies more common sense to the to hit roll.

[El Capitan]

Problem with defining physical size is models get customised ala Ork War Trukk

beware the 35 mm tall carnifex! lol

remember GW Ork vehicles, they abused the hell out fo the physical size rule there by making stupidly big trukks, basically making Ork Limousines

[Simon]

tturen said:

Their is no question that a Carni is a BIG model. Much larger and bulkier than a dreadnought.

Actually if you pop them next to each other, there is very little difference between the original carnifex and a marine Dread. My problem is also that an eldar dreadnought would come under the larger target size (and if we analyse the battlefield roles of a carnifex it is a dreadnought rather than a tank as it has got a lot less in the way of ranged firepower, and can make a great troop killer in close quarters)

The NEW carnifex is massive. It is actually bordering on land raider size depending on how you model it. The problem is that 4th Ed is a universe to suit GW staff (where size doesn't matter) so the rules we have should always be based on the 2nd Ed incarnations of the models.

[Adoni-Zedek]

I thought the rules stated models which are "elephant-sized or larger" got the +1 bonus for targeting them. I've always applied that to anything the size of a marine rhino or larger. Tyranid warriors don't get it, neither do dreads. I'd probably give it to the Carnifex, but not the hive tyrant. The Carnifex has 10 wounds, T8, and a Terminator armor save. Frequently it comes with a voltage field, and perhaps Regeneration or Toughened Exoskeleton. I don't think making it +1 to hit is a real liability. The Hive Tyrant isn't nearly as massive (T6, 5 wounds, 4+ save), and I'm not sure any army commander should be +1 to hit. Is the Avatar a large target?

[tturen]

I've never seen an ork truck that qualified as a +1 target. For the modelers sake we would ignore it I suppose if it was so large.

If the Carni is as small as a dread I'll eat it.

As for the Eldar Dread our players don't use or own any so its never come up. They use lots of walkers though who do not get the bonus to hit. Our Eldar player would have a fit if his walkers were easier to hit...

I've never seen an actual Avatar played. Our Eldar player has proxied them with smaller models but never bought one.

I suppose an exception to the rule could be made for command models of all types.

As far as GW model sizes go I agree some of the models are absurd. Since size doesn't have an impact on the newer editions the company has gotten senselessly careless in the search for greater revenue. Its difficult at times to mix some of the newer and older models. I'm certain this is deliberate. Buy new, buy new....

[El Capitan]

how come your rule applies to some models and not others? A carnifex could lie down, a walker couldn't, if anything a walker should have +1 to hit, though id disagree with that anyhow. The Tyranid models are articulate, and consequently should not suffer the penalties a Hulking Land Raider incurs. Tyranid monsters have a hard enough time being monstrous targets and usually get caned early on, never mind giving people bonuses against them. I know we'll be sticking to Land Raider size + for the extra to hit as it makes sense in the game balance.

If you are gonna play on physical model size, get a space marine squad together, its similar size to a predator physically, and as their a wide target shouldn't they be easier to hit too? This type of rule can spiral as it discriminates against particular players and races [that sounded like a warhammer racism jibe.....now i really feel like a geek ]

[LukeG]

New models asside all monsters and dreadnoughts are comparable except that monsters move easier. These work as 'big' targets, an unofficial classification, and can be fired at over any 'small' targets. Anything bigger then a 'big' target is a Large target and gets +1 to hit.

By giving predators +1 to hit you mights as well take a land raider instead, there's so many advantages and you CANNOT descriminate between classes of targets! By this, I mean you could not shoot over a predator to hit a land raider instead under your ruling. Same sized classes can't be distinguished so you could screen a landraider with a smaller tank this way because you reclassified everything as large.

When it comes to new Tyranids I would assume they go along on most, if not all, legs to present smaller targets then rear up to attack. They look more bug like now anyway and I would see this idea especially true of the new Carnifex with it's huge shell-like armour, presenting that as a target then leaping onto it's victims (I actually quite like the new models).

As a further note, anyone using titan class forge world goodies should classify them as 'Titan' and 'Superheavy', with bonuses to hit and the capability to shoot over other vehicles at them!

[El Capitan]

as a note, what you refer to as 'big' targets did get given an official classification as 'Monstrous', its in CODEX Chaos and Tyranids, which is one fo the problems that was levelled at 2nd ed, as the ruiles were spread across the CODEX's. At least 2nd ed never needed a chapter approved though as the problem is even worse now.

[tturen]

"how come your rule applies to some models and not others? "

Such as? The basic rule applies to all models larger than a Dread.

"I know we'll be sticking to Land Raider size + for the extra to hit as it makes sense in the game balance."

The huge center mass of a Carni does not articulate and with those claws...

Game balance whys the bonus +1 to hit extra large targets applies across all armies. What is does in game is provide a bonus to hit all tanks. This impacts game balance in a positive way as the basic rules overpower things like tanks in the first place. Game balance and size are one of the reasons Carni's are included in the first place.

"If you are gonna play on physical model size, get a space marine squad together, its similar size to a predator physically, and as their a wide target shouldn't they be easier to hit too? "

Anyone stupid enough to mass troops like that is already going to pay for their stupidity. In any case each squad member is a unique model and none to large thanks.

"By giving predators +1 to hit you mights as well take a land raider instead, there's so many advantages and you CANNOT descriminate between classes of targets! By this, I mean you could not shoot over a predator to hit a land raider instead under your ruling."

You can't shoot over one vehicle to hit another anyway. Even under the basic rules you can park a Pred in front of a Raider the Pred is still the first target that must be engaged. The +1 to hit the Raider does not allow an opponent to ignore the closest target rule.

In the case of vehicles the better choice remains the Predator. For 150 points you can get one with twin laz and two HB's.

"as a note, what you refer to as 'big' targets did get given an official classification as 'Monstrous', its in CODEX Chaos and Tyranids, which is one fo the problems that was levelled at 2nd ed, as the ruiles were spread across the CODEX's."

'Big' and 'monsterous' are not interchangable terms. Both codexes that utilize the term monsterous do so to distinguish target classes that incluge large creatures as a target class. The bonus to hit overly large targets doesn't alter any of these rules either. As a practical mattter though we ignore most of Daemon targeting rules. If its a vehicle or monsterous creature we target the closest first. As we see very few Large Daemons the issue has never been a concern particulary since large daemons tend to be the closest targets anyway and in need of destruction.

[ortron]

I doubt you'll ever get a hard and fast rule that will apply to everything and keep everyone happy.

For our games groupd we use any vehicle with a Ram Strength of 7 or better (eg Rhino or bigger) or in the case of walkers those dreadnaught size or bigger.

I think this is only fair since a tank is a tank and tanks are simply bigger than most other models out there and would be easier to hit. In their favour they have better armour, speed and the ability to move into hull down positions where they can be better protected.

On a games note I find this makes classification a bit easier and helps justify including hive tyrants, carnifexes, greater deamons etc as big targets.

At the end of the day i think people will just have to come up with what suits there own tastes as GW didn't really make this one black and white before they moved on to 3rd ed.

[El Capitan]

you said you didn't apply the large target rule to eldar war walkers, but their some of the biggest models around!

If you give a +1 to hit a predator, what do you do about the Land Raider, it was one of the key disadvantages that has always affected army selection over he with the 7 marine armies that have been in use. The LR is similar cost the the predator annihilator, yet is simply better, and if it loses the sole right to being a big target in the marine armies.

Also by slapping +1 to hit on almost every vehicle it pretty much takes away the combat speed rule, something thats always been a tactical trade off to cover tanks from fire.

I do share you sentiment that vehicles can seem undervalued, however if you have scenery that looks like a 40k battlefield rather than a back field, tanks become very limited indeed.

As with tank effectiveness, compare the imperial predator to the chaos one, the imperial predator always seems undervalued to me with the horror of its targetters and in a straight fight the chaos one is usually a ball of flames even if its had a couple of turns to return fire. Same applies to the Dreadnoughts, the Imperial Dreadnought is nothing short of being the most brutal thing in 40k with that always 2+ to hit assault cannon.

just left my comp for half an hoir and forgot what i was saying, oh well

[tturen]

"For our games groupd we use any vehicle with a Ram Strength of 7 or better (eg Rhino or bigger) or in the case of walkers those dreadnaught size or bigger."

Thats a logical rule. I agree its the most realistic option but I know we have group members who would veto it to preserve their dreads and such.

"you said you didn't apply the large target rule to eldar war walkers, but their some of the biggest models around!"

War Walkers are dreadnoughts so the rule doesn't apply to them. Although I think all dreads should be large targets too.

"If you give a +1 to hit a predator, what do you do about the Land Raider, it was one of the key disadvantages that has always affected army selection over he with the 7 marine armies that have been in use. The LR is similar cost the the predator annihilator, yet is simply better, and if it loses the sole right to being a big target in the marine armies."

We see extensive use of both vehicles. We do see few Annihilators though given the cost of the weapons outfit and lighter armour. With or without the bonus to hit the annihilator is to expensive given its weak armour and we take Raiders in that roll. Instead we see lots of Predators with a more varried weapons and the tank is utelized in the medium tank roll.

In my own marine armies I take Predators. My Raider stays in the box as to expensive in terms of points.

"Also by slapping +1 to hit on almost every vehicle it pretty much takes away the combat speed rule, something thats always been a tactical trade off to cover tanks from fire. "

I have found that the bonus makes players think more tacticaly in terms of utelizing speed and cover. If a player wants to overcome the reality of being a large target they just need to apply themselves to realistic tactics. Those tactics still work rather well. I know as I use them on a regular basis to keep my Predators from absorbing to much punishment. The reality of combat is that big things like tanks are easier targets.

"I do share you sentiment that vehicles can seem undervalued, however if you have scenery that looks like a 40k battlefield rather than a back field, tanks become very limited indeed. "

I agree this helps and in fact we play with lots of sight blocking terrain. As an IG player though I can say that all that terrain can be easily turned into an advantage by a good tank commander. So even terrain doesn't cure the undervalued issue.