Loop holes 'r' us

[Adoni-Zedek]

The wargear card for the medikit doesn't specify what armor types it's allowed to treat, so Apothecaries can use it on anyone with wounds. Presumably you could even use it on vehicles with dead crew members, if you can board the vehicle.

In current rules, any chapter may take one Crusader, but only Black Templars may take more than one.

[El Capitan]

We barred medipacks from treating terminators, it jsut dint make much sense. If the armour was that badly damaged that the apothecary could get into the wound the marine certainly wouldnt be gwetting up any time soon.

The Crusader has been transformed into a special character for chapters other than the black templars in our rules...so the opponent has to agree to its use. The reason we didnt up the transport capacity for the crusader was for consistency, it has more guns than the standard land raider and would need much more ammo space, so to up its transport capacity just didnt make any sense (whence it probbaly made lots of sense to GW developers)

[Adoni-Zedek]

I kind of agree with the Crusader logic. Lascannon cells can't take much more room than all the other weapons they've given this thing. Maybe if you ditched the Multi-Melta (which I did), and reduced the Assault Cannons to Heavy Bolters, but otherwise I don't really think you're saving much space.

How do you guys handle the twin-linked Assault Cannons? I've currently got it working like a normal twin-linked weapon, costing 90 points, but I've never actually used it (I'm the only one in our group with a Land Raider), so I'm open to input.

[El Capitan]

We've had a Baal Predator roll out in the past. We used it as a normal twin linked weapon rolling six sustained fire dice at once (we use a full auto rule so you cant roll less than maximum sustained fire), if 3 jams or more are rolled it = a damage rseult of 6 on the turret (the hull on the LR), and it clears two jams a turn rather than just one.

[tturen]

Those last rules for the linked Ass Cann's make sense. I suppose the fact that the tank will spend every other turn clearing jams helps offset the impact of the little nasties!

As for medi packs though the armor type should not be relevent at all. If it was the terminator ought to get a recovery bonus simply because he is better protected and thus less likely to be as badly wounded.

As for the Crusader where do I get a fax for one? It helps to keep in mind with GW in general that looks don't matter a great deal and scale even less so. Getting to realistic in terms of capacity just doesn't fit the model range. Consider the size of an Ass Cann termi's ammo box for starters...

[Charly]

i dont think terminators need any more bonus'. he is better protected yes but that serves as an armour save. if hes wounded at all it is likely to be badly as the average weapon a terminator gets killed by is probably a lascannon. saying that a term can be killed by anything. i wud need to read the background to the medi pack and the terminator armour again, but i think medi packs not working sounds ok. plus it adds another (minor) negative to taking terminator squads.

[El Capitan]

This is how the Crusader appears in our update:

"Land Raider Crusader – The Black Templars are the only chapter to use these behemoths as a general vehicle. As such replace the standard Land raider entry with the Crusader variant. This has six linked bolters in the sponsons instead of the lascannons and a multi-melta instead of the heavy bolter. It also has driver operated twin-linked assault cannons. It has an enhanced troop capacity of +5 (total of 15 marines or 7 Terminators). Note that this seems rather confusing, Assault cannon, and bolter ammo takes up far more space than a few lascannon battery cells :/. These monsters weigh in at 210 points (yes the weapon armament on the crusader is a lower cost!). Also other chapters may use them but only as special character equivalents to represent their rarity. "

However it requires a more solid wording that'll be rectified whenever i can get round to it, the enlarged troop capactiy can be given the middle finger. The actual points can be debatable as well, from the looks of it ive charged the sponsons at 90 points but a tarantala's twin lkascannons are at 55 points (from memory) so the Crusader needs its point reworking as well I think.

With the medi-pack and terminator thing that came about from a situation where the player who was about to do it stopped himself and said it seemed silly that the apothecary could do anything to help the terminator given he wouldnt be able to reach the wounds unless he had an improvised thunder hammer, the ruling has stuck ever since and was never re-addressed

[Adoni-Zedek]

My version on the Crusader weighs in at 225 pts, without the multi-melta. I subtracted the cost of the twin lascannons (55x2) and the twin heavy bolters (30), added 25 pts (half a rhino) for troop capacity, 30 pts for 6 StormBolters (3 per hurricane bolter), and 90 points for two assault cannons. If you want the pintle mounted multi-melta, it will run you another 65 points, plus another 25 for the crewman to man it. Though I guess if I let the driver control the assault cannons, the 5th man isn't necessary.

As far as the medikit is concerned, power armor isn't really going to be that much easier for the apothecary to open up than terminator armor. You're still going through ceramite and adamantium, just not as much. If it works on power armor, it should work on terminator armor. Heck, orks get a built-in one in mega armor, which negates each wound on a 4+. The only thing I can see limiting the use of medikits is weapons that autokill, like death spinners, barbed stranglers, and Abbadon's sword.

[tturen]

Thanks for Crusader information gentlemen. Nasty beast that one! There cerianly is a considerable points difference on the examples. 210 sounds a little cheap given the weapons fit and having the driver as a gunner for a weapon like twin linked ass cans seems a little odd. Certainly its not out of the question given the Rhino's gunner/driver.

As for the 225 point version thats cost might be OK. Paying for a melta gunner though is a bit over the top though isn't it? Consider that when sponson style weapons are dropped the only points deducted are for the weapon itself and adding sponsons to some IG tanks doesn't require the purchase of a gunner as well as its assumed he comes with the weapon.

[El Capitan]

Yeah you basically buy a ballistic value based on the army itself which defines the differing weapons cost.

Alternate points for crusader idea-

220 - 55 (twin las) - 55 (twin las) - 30 (twin hvy bolt) = 80 points
+ 65 (multimelta) + 18 (6 bolters) + 18 (6 bolters) + 90 (Twin assault cannons) = final total of 271 points
steep? it does have the games two strongest general purpose weapons on it!

Also +1 or +2 crew members? Again on the note of space, the crusader defintately needs more crew so quite as to where the extra space comes from is a further mystery.

I also think 6 linked bolters is quite good, its like a combat squad firing but with a better chance of landing all the shots.

[Charly]

with things like the predator the price of crew members is either nothing extra or is included in the price of the sponson. i think we should keep the crusader with all its weapons on it but theres no need to increase its capacity above the normal land raider. hasnt it got grenade launchers on the front too?

[Adoni-Zedek]

That's a good point about the crew member being included in the weapons cost. Okay, so if I add on the Multi Melta, it'll cost 290 points, including the added transport space, or 265 without it. Note that a stormbolter is actually cheaper than two boltguns, which accounts for the difference in cost.

If you require the reinforced armor, that adds 10 points to the cost, but slows the Crusader down a bit. Frag autolaunchers will add 5 points, while frag defenders will cost 10-15 points, I don't remember exactly. (Frag Defenders affect all models in base contact with the vehicle, at S4, -1 save mod)

The original LR has a crew of 4: one driver and three gunners. If you allow the assault cannons to be controlled by the driver, then a crew of 4 will still do nicely.

[Charly]

thats interesting using the hurricane bolters as 3 storm bolters, so u wud role one dice to hit and then 3 sustain fire? our version would be one role to hit and then that give 6 shots. it looks on the model to me like 6 normal bolters strapped together but no reason y it couldnt be used as a sustain fire weapon. i still dont think the crusader can possibly have more transport space, i meen its phyisically the same chasis as the LR, but with more weapons, and ammo wise more space consuming weapons, plus the extra crew member needed. not sure about the driver controlling the assualt cannon, driving a land raider and driving a rhino i imagine would be very different, as would firing an assault cannon and firing twin bolters.