Loop holes 'r' us

[El Capitan]

we only allow special charcters on agreement before the game, and their equipment stands. They are the uber warriors of death after all.

There isnt the cap on standard equipment or vehicle cards either, its just standard wargear in standard games and there is no cap on special army cards, such as Chaos Rewards, Necron Artifacts and Dark Eldar Instruments.

[Adoni-Zedek]

I suppose you just need to sit the cheese players down, and let them know that there isn't a 2nd Ed codex out there that can't be twisted into a cheese army. And while it might be fun to thrash your opponents, it can quickly turn into a case of everyone bringing in a unit of Wolfguard Termies with Cyclones, and then what's the fun of playing, if everyone has the same army? Tturen, you might point out that you could bring in the same 4 exarches as allies, without even needing the supporting aspect squads. Cheese players need to realise that fun is the object of the game, and not totally thrashing your opponent.
(yes, I know. Allies are banned in the OGC)

Incidentally, what's the feeling on Exarches and Wargear? Would I be cheesy if I gave my howling banshee exarch a web of skulls? It's very similar to the silent death that Jain Zar gets.

A Fire Pike is definately out of line, as is a Bright Lance. A Lasblaster really doesn't fit either, but a Web of Skulls is a thrown weapon, and thrown weapons have always struck me as assault type weapons

Technically she could take the Scorpion's bite, or the Maugetar, as those are listed as Eldar only, not <insert your favortie phoenix lord here> only, but that's well into cheese territory. Another loophole that needs to be closed.

If you were putting together a Dire Avengers Exarch, what equipment would you choose? Dire avengers have no special wargear items, or even special Exarch wargear (banshee masks, mandiblasters, hawk wings, etc.)

Another loophole is the Fire Axe. I think this is more of a misprint really. It's a Str 7 weapon, with a listed penetration of 7+d6+12. I'm reasonably certain it should be 7+d6+d12 instead.

My Dark Reaper exarch will have a shuriken cannon. I briefly considered the Missile Launcher with fast shot, but that seemed too much. Besides, I see him as filling a more defensive role, taking out units that might threaten the Dark Reapers, leaving them free to concentrate on hard targets.

What are your thoughts?

[El Capitan]

That fire axe will be a misprint. As for a dire avenger exarch i'd simply take the 'dire' equipping with some nitty gritty stuff. Ive done thins before having the exarch as the commander and had it roaming around the centre with the bulk of the troops, though i tend to have my commanders away from the front line to get their LD in full effect.

[Simon]

Here comes something from the Angels of Death Codex compared to the Space Wolves Codex:

0-1 Terminator Captain - 125pts (AOD)
0-1 Space Marine Captain - 96pts (AOD)
1 Wolf Lord - 90pts(SW)

notice the slight problem there (the wolf one is actually better, having the hatred rule for vs. thousand sons and acute senses), but there is also the problem between the points of a terminator captain and a normal one.

A Captain which is given terminator armour off the list would actually cost 141pts for the equipment to match the Terminator Captain and these models are identical. Also, the Captain can actually be given terminator armour under the rules, and you can still field your cheaper Terminator Captain as well.

I'm not actually that bothered about the terminator armour for the captain anyway, as there would always be the possibility for him to acquire it for leading a force under certain circumstances, just the big points discrepency...

[Charly]

the whole book needs going through and the rules revising really. you get things in angels of death like deathwing terminators costing lots more for the deathwing rule, but then space wolves just being cheaper for no reason (that i know or can think of). im sure its on mikes to do list, but its obviously not a priority with nobody in the club playing wolves, and the amount of uni work hes got to do at the moment!

[El Capitan]

with the objective of the OGC rulebook, every army list will be gone through and compiled and things will change, in fact with all of the official amendments and our approved ammendments every list will probably appear different to its original counterpart.
....i'll do it in a few weeks though!

[tturen]

"Tturen, you might point out that you could bring in the same 4 exarches as allies,"

---Although we do ally with other players we generaly don't take allies in our own armies. Nice evil thought though. Cheese is a constant companion in our group and some of our players see at as just a matter of exploring the learning curve of the game. Funny though the playing field is pretty level in our group with the Eldar playing doing nicely but has yet to beat my Wolves, IG or another players Chaos army.

"Incidentally, what's the feeling on Exarches and Wargear? Would I be cheesy if I gave my howling banshee exarch a web of skulls? It's very similar to the silent death that Jain Zar gets"

---Take it. It fits the theme nicely enough. The Dire Avenger Exarch outfit could be pretty generalized with a dose of wargear from the general list. I just can't see him with things like a mask, wings, or warp generator and the like.

" im sure its on mikes to do list, but its obviously not a priority with nobody in the club playing wolves, and the amount of uni work hes got to do at the moment!"

Although I think it would be fine to adjust the codex limitation on some of the points Adoni has mentioned this is because the army list within the codex itself is not particularly logical such as the points with the Long Fangs being cheaper than other Wolf codex troops. However the costs between different codex armies I would hesitate to 'adjust' as each army is supposed to be unique and in some cases the adjustments one might be tempted to make should in fact be made to the Ultra Codex and not the Wolf codex. Marines already seem to to expensive. In our group given the Wolf codex we allow Smurfs to split the HW's squad or just take one 5 man squad with 4 HW's like the long fangs.

Also keep in mind each marine codex has unique balancing features to set them upon a different path. Although some wolves might be cheaper others are more expensive or they lack the options given to other marine armies. In the Wolves case they dont have jump squads that can shoot or throw straight, they don't have cheap vet. sargent upgrades, the tac squads can't have HW's, and the cost of their Dreadnoughts is hideous.

[Simon]

Howling Banshee Exarch's:

Am I missing something here or would taking an exarch to lead a unit of Banshees actually be a bad thing due to the reduction to movement 5 for the Exarch himself. There should be a rule that the Exarch has the movement value of his aspect, rather than just movement 5 all the time...

On the subject of points ammendments for armies, sometimes it is essential so that a 30 point troop is as effective as another 30 point troop and so on, rather than a 90 point captain being better than a 96 point Captain etc.

Points costs are supposed to balance armies with each other, not themselves...

[Adoni-Zedek]

We play that banshee Exarches are Movement 6 at no added cost. Of course, we also play exarches may only take one selection from the exarch wargear list, so an exarch has to take the banshee mask to be a banshee exarch.

[El Capitan]

Yes that sounds exactly right.

the exarch equipment should be restricted to exarches leading units.

[Charly]

makes sence to me. id probably take it like that naturally without the rule being there. as for the case of veteran space marines i think me and mike came up with, u can only have one veteran space marine squad per unit of the same type. ie to take ultramarine veterans u would need a tactical squad first. for terminators u need to field one of tactical, assault, or devastator squads in order to bring them in, that way you can still have assualt armies etc. in the case of first company armies, use simons suggestion and make it as a special character. the first company would only be used en mass in rare situations. but it is still possible to field an entirely veteran/terminator army. does anybody have any problems with those rules?

[Simon]

I don't recall making that suggestion, plus you pay the points for the veterans being, well, veterans. I don't think that they need limiting at all.

[El Capitan]

Youd have to be very very foolish to take a standard tactical squad when veterans are available at a snip. The veteran points cost is right, but the coming dawn of 1st company dominion is nigh...its always puzzled me as to why ppl dont pile in the veteran squads, only with a multi-melta do they give away the VPs of a standard tactical squad.

It hasnt come up as a problem because nobody seems to have noticed until now. But its about too...the same with all terminator armies. Whislt it is possible in theory, its a doomsday scenario. Its the same as having an army of great swords in 5th edition warhammer. The elite / rare & special selection pushed players into more feasible armies concentrating on the core troops. The biggest loop hole in our 40k is one thats rarely exploited. Our most resticted lsit is now Chaos after years of my abusing, its been gradually stripped and it hasnt handicapped the army at all. I still win most games.

The fact is that, unlike other armies, space marine players face a scenario where the most vital unit, is compeltely upgradable in a format that means its ridicolous not to do so. The tactics wont change etc, just pay +30 points. Effectively we should scrap thwe idea of comapnies 2-9 and form a special assault and devastator company to form up with the soon to be overtiming 1st company.

In the bad old days when evryone would upgrade evrything, remember the vet sgts, aspiring champions, skarboyz for all etc? Why on earth did people not realsie that that vet tactical squads were there? In bentely's case he had a bike based army so thats fine, Mark used blood angels with no assault troops bar the death company, (interstingly he used two full vanilla tactical squads and had much success), but Luke should have cottoned on much earlier. Charly at least has been using 1st company in context, but the rpoblem with people using armies in the form of Nigel Stillman is that they get battered for living up to the games rich story whislt pwoer agmers roll around with their hentai and stupid armies.

Well, that was an enjoyable rant, but one that needed saying. Like the Pulse Laser, the instant going out of control and the character limits already implemented, elite units being catergorised was a natural evolution fo the rules, and there are hints at elast in some of the CODEX's, + its how we've been developing the new ones. Check the Necrons and Dark Eldar, or Chaos and the comings Orks list rework.

Annoyingly Lukes' lying in bed boycott of the aord cant flesh these debates out, or recall simons idea of 1st company armies being like special characters (which actually appears somewhere on this forum i think).

So far people have always chosen contextual themed armies, and theres never been major problems but the amoiunt of eyebrows raised at the opprotunity to exploit this veteran goldmine has brought this one to attention. If you've read this far, well done but ive forgotten what this was about. Oh yeah, no more veteran units than there are of their standard type unless agreed by the other player. ;D

[tturen]

Frankly I just don't see vet squads as particularly hazardous at their points cost. Can't say I've ever seen more than one squad of them though.

[El Capitan]

Yeah, their points are fine. Its jsut the opportunity too actually build armies out of them. Most players respect the story and background when getting into the hobby (which is half the story anyway), and theres always been a nice balance with the club, however recently theres been some newer players whose sole philosophy is to power game and make 40k as miserable for all as possible.

[Charly]

the problem we are trying to avoid isnt really ppl over using veteran squads, its the fact that tactical squads are pretty much redundant (to ppl that dont care about the context of the army) only have to pay 30 pts more for the exact same options just with better stats.

[Simon]

You could put a limit on the squads based on the size of the army (take the Biovore for example; 1 per 750 points). Having to have one kind of squad to take another would end up with people all having the same army with no variety.

You could have it that you are only allowed 1 'veteran' unit per 1500 points or something.

I don't agree with the point that Tactical squads become pointless, because you can actually squeeze more into an army with them in there.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I think it should be one veteran squad per 3 normal to be honest.

[Simon]

But this is not Warhammer, nor is it 3/4th edition.

There is enough background in the codexes to allow for a great variety of armies from each race. I think we are actually getting a bit carried away with things on this one, where something doesn't necessarily need changing.

[tturen]

I agree with Simon on this one. Although fluff limitations such as 3 to 1 make sense the 2nd Ed codex variability is an asset to the game. I myself have always felt restrained from abusing the vet marines by the their points cost. Marines are already points intensive so that extra 30 adds up in a hurry and they die just as easily as regular marines. I tend to take vet squads on an as needed basis and for specific rolls.