Loop holes 'r' us

[El Capitan]

Loop holes have always been a part of GW games, in some cases they are absolutely rife...hello Warhammer??? The current rend is even worse were White Dwarf magazine applauds loop holes, for example the all monster tyranid army and the all terminator army (supposedly not possible in 4th ed. but by using scouts as troops choices as WD pointed out it was simple). Even our hallowed 2nd ed. has a mountain of loop holes, challenging for even the most dedicated army building climber.
With our updated army lists, and army restrictions we've ground a massive amount of these loop holes out but theres still plenty around.

As i write this I'm thinking on a horror tactic in the chaos book, 3 man terminator squads with 2 heavy weapons in, or 3 chaos marines all with heavy weapons. The answer to this..... 1 heavy weapon per 5 terminators (so you'd need a squad of 6 for the 2 heavy weapon + marked terms other than tzeentch cant have reaper autocannons), and for the marines, one heavy per 3 mariens...so you could form the equiv of an imperial devastator combat squad.

However it doesn't end, there, there are hordes of little loop holes still lying around, so help weed them out! We usually dont realsie problems until somoen utilises them...for myself the old bloodthrister with inflitrating aspiring champion and the 3 temrinator 2 repaer autocannon combo [BAD MIKE!]. Bear in mind that the patches need to be flexible rather than a dictated amendment, the chaos examples above still allow for the same type of squad flexibility so bear that in mind.

Heres one to get you started...Bad Moons and Death Skull loota's....1 heavy or special per 3 orks??

[tturen]

Your absolutely right about loop holes in the rules!
I haven't seen those Chaos loop holes before though. The basic rules for them as I recall allow terminators 1 heavy weapon per squad so 1 in 3 right? The chaos marines are 2 heavy weapons per squad of three. So the loop holes in question must involve Champions or some such? Exactly how is this done?

[El Capitan]

I never realsied this either, until about a year ago, after almsot a decade of using the 2nd CODEX! Ive got it inf ront of me right now, its the firsat entry for the terminator wargear bit, and the 3rd entry for the chaos space marine bit

[tturen]

Thanks! I see it know. I've played against Chaos a lot and never seen those combos but they are clearly within the codex rules. Our Chaos guys I guess just like the heavy weapons to be with veterans who get 2 for a squad of three.

(PS could we keep this quiet anyway...)

[Charly]

thats something that has to be winkled (good word) out for each case i guess, difficult to apply a general rule that will fix all of a certain kind of loophole

[Adoni-Zedek]

For the orks, I dunno. Sounds okay for the Badmoons. For the Deathskulls, perhaps go back to the 'support' slots for them, so you don't face an entire army of deathskulls. I wouldn't change the fact that deathskulls can all take heavy weapons though. That's like saying only 1-in-3 of your Eldar Dark Reapers can take a dark reaper missile launcher. Limit the number of squads, rather than the weapons per squad, for the deathskulls.

Here's another bunch of Loop-holes: Codex Space Wolves.

Specifically the wolfguard (with or without terminator armor) and the Long Fangs.

The Long Fangs are 157 pts for 5 marines with bolters, and one power axe. That works out to 30pts per long fang with WS and BS of 5. Yup 5. And they get targeters. (edit: Longfangs don't come with bolters. So with bolters, they'd be 33 points each)

Grey Hunters, on the other hand, cost 316 points for ten marines with bolters and one powersword. That works out to 31 points per hunter, with WS 5 and BS 4. So long fangs are cheaper, and have better stats. (For a while, I used to run 3 packs of long fangs, but only one squad would have 4 heavy weapons; the others would have bolters, and one heavy/special weapon. Yeah, I know. Bad boy!)

Wolfguard are 34 points with power armor and bolt pistols, and may all choose heavy or special weapons. Plus they have WS 6, BS 5. Or, for +14 points you can put them in terminator armor, where they can all take terminator heavy weapons. And they have a squad size of 5-20. Imagine a 15-strong squad of wolfguard in terminator armor with powerfists and Assault cannons? All for only 1575pts. In a 2000 pt battle, that still leaves plenty for a Wolf Lord and dreadnought! (I did run a 5-man squad of these guys, but only two had assault cannons. Sometimes I'd trade one out for a cyclone instead, though).

[tturen]

I use Space Wolves and although I've noticed those 'oddities' I've not exploited them except of course for a 5 man terminator squad with 2 ass cans or a 6 man squad that adds a cyclone termi. The ass can termi squads did get so bad that GW reminded people in a WD that such squads were still limited to targeting one other squad. A crafty player though could get around that though.

Now that one of our Eldar players has honed (cheesed) his army though it might be time to demonstrate that his isn't the only codex that allows for exceptional exploitation!

[Adoni-Zedek]

Tturen:
What kind of 'cheese' is he bringing to the table? Maybe I can help you come up with some counters...

There was another loophole that GW closed in a FAQ later. Until they did, though, there was nothing stopping your wolfguard models from taking a cyclone launcher and an assault cannon, and firing both in the same turn! You couldn't use your targeters, but with a BS of 5, you really didn't need them. I'm proud to say I never even considered trying this option. Of course, it didn't occur to me until I read the FAQ, but I still don't think I would have done it. Some things are just too much.

the wolfguard sgts are pretty sweet too. WS 6 BS 5 for 31 points. A veteran Sgt is otherwise 35 points, with slightly worse stats (WS 5). By the time you add a bolter you're up to 34, but still quite a steal!

[Charly]

luckily knowbody in ogc really plays space wolves or else there probably wud have been some changes or points increases. theres free weapon skill upgrades all over the place.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I might get a squad of em as I can take them as support in sisters armys.

[El Capitan]

Allies are banned in OGC!

[tturen]

"What kind of 'cheese' is he bringing to the table? Maybe I can help you come up with some counters..."

'Cheese'? He's simply taking advantage of the loop hole that allows exarchs to be taken without any concern for their relationship to the troops on the field. That would be 3-4 exarchs all with warp spider packs, fastshot, heavy weapons, and assorted wargear/power weapons. Mix in 1-2 vypers, 3-4 warwalkers, a few grav platforms, and an extra psyker as well as as few gardians as possible and you get a basic idea. Its a min/maxed list at 2000 points.

Overwatch helps counter it a bit as do jump troops but its a difficult army to beat although so far the best he's done against me was a draw. Against most of the other players though its a winner

Did I mention that Exarchs are loop hole in and of themselves...

[El Capitan]

Exploitation to hell. Exarch's should only be allowed the wargear that relates to them and should require their standard squad for every exarch as well. A sour mistake by GW.

That army just sounds stupid, and how cna it be any fun to play as? Power gamers suck!

[Adoni-Zedek]

I have to agree that the Exarches should match the aspect squad. I've got three exarches, a swooping hawk for my 5-man hawk squad, a Howling banshee for my 5 banshees, and a dark reaper with shuriken catapult for my 4-man dark reaper squad. Of course, only the banshee is painted so far, so she'll probably fight better than the other two . Never actually used my eldar yet. Have to see how they do.

Does he actually have 4 squads of aspect warriors? That is still required for 4 exarches. Let me guess, he probably has 4 three-man dire avenger squads. Make certain he's not warping in, firing a heavy weapon (other than a shuriken cannon) and warping out. Heavy weapons are still move and fire.

How do you feel about vortex grenades? A really nasty trick is to take one in your army, and kill something really pricy with it. This will most likely make him say "I want one!" So the next game you instead bring in a vehicle with a vortex detonater, and when he tries to use his shiny new grenade, it backfires on him!

Unsporting and mean, but fun to use against a 'cheese' player. Of course, this also introduces vortex grenades, which is something I've tried to avoid in my group.

I suppose really the best thing to do is to let him know it's not a terribly fun army to play against, and it would be better if the exarches at least matched the aspect warriors. (Speaking of dire avengers, what are their exarches supposed to carry?). Re-emphasize that the game is really about having fun. Certainly winning is good, but fun is still more important. If he's still having trouble with the concept, ask him how he'd feel if you brought in two 5-man wolfguard squads all with assault cannons, Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Logan Grimnar, and two LandRaiders.

Now I, personally, am not above fielding a tooled-up character or two, but I guess I'm weird in that I still want to see my little tactical squads carry the day. They usually don't but I always try to let them have the chance.

[Charly]

i dont believe in taking advantage of loop holes. i think if you rely on them to win games or even help you to win games then thats just bad play really. the rules should be treated responsibly, if somethings badly worded or you spot a loophole, you should use the fair and reasonable option rather than the one that best favours your beard! ie giving exarchs the wargear that they would actually have, not just loading them up with random stuff.

[James 40K Champ ***]

We banned all wargear cards over 30 points!

[Adoni-Zedek]

Okay, forget the Vortex grenade thingy. Well, Tturen , I guess you can still use it, as you're not OGC. Everyone else: forget it.

Let's see....no Banner of McCragge, no Bright Lance, no Chaos Warmaster's Armor (Sorry Abaddon, you'll have to sit this Black Crusade out), no CyBork Body (Mad Doc Grotsnik's out), no Force Field Projekta, no Graviton Gun, no Maugetar (good-bye Maugen Ra), no Power Field, no Red Grail, no Rod of Tigurus (or Tigurus himself), No Stormcaller Staff (see ya later, Njal!), no Shroud of Sanguinius, no Standards of Devestation or Fortitude (sucks to be you, Dark Angels!), no Terminator Armor for those that could not choose it normally, no Tyrant's Claw (or Huron Blackheart, Tyrant of Badab, Lord of the Maelstrom, etc, etc.), no Vaxine Squiggs (which aren't needed if there's no Virus Grenades or Virus Outbreaks), no 'V' grenades (virus or Vortex), and no Wolf Helm of Russ (another Space Wolves character gone...)

Wow. That's quite a lot of items. Some of them eliminate special characters too. Are they banned also? (I mean all special characters, not just the ones with banned wargear).

Are vehicle upgrades subject to the same 30 point limit? That would eliminate Ceramite Armor, Null Shields, Vortex detonators (not needed with no vortex grenades), Tzeentch Corruscating Warp Flames, Daemonic Possesion (depending on the vehicle possesed), and Talons for Eldar Walkers and Dreadnoughts.


Edit: Oops! That's supposed to be "no terminator armor for those that could not choose it normally." Thanks for the catch, Simon.

[Simon]

As far as I know, we aren't allowed to use special characters in the 40K tournament, but most of them count as an extra hero slot (see our main rules on the OGC homepage). Items that are carried by special characters that are over 30 points are not banned as far as I know, but are just limited to that character anyway, and with the modifications that we have made to the rules, sacrificing the extra hero for a little bit of extra whack on one guy is not worth it.

You mentioned terminator armour. I should clarify that it is only wargear cards that are limited, not equipment that you can purchase from the main list of an army.

[tturen]

"Exploitation to hell. Exarch's should only be allowed the wargear that relates to them and should require their standard squad for every exarch as well. A sour mistake by GW. "

Indeed!


"Does he actually have 4 squads of aspect warriors? That is still required for 4 exarches."

Yep, 1-2 squads of spyders and 1-2 squads of Reapers.

"How do you feel about vortex grenades?"

He uses them from time to time but not every game.

"If he's still having trouble with the concept, ask him how he'd feel if you brought in two 5-man wolfguard squads all with assault cannons, Bjorn the Fell-Handed, Logan Grimnar, and two LandRaiders."

If he beats me I'll let you know just how he feels about it. As it stands my Wolves have done well so far with a pretty flexible force and I think my IG would still smash him with the army of 'threes'. I could always do a rush army with the Wolves as well if needed.

"i dont believe in taking advantage of loop holes."

You would hate our group. Not that all of us do that but we do have a fair number of cheese players.

"We banned all wargear cards over 30 points!"

I'm not fond of that rule. On the other hand it would have no impact on my army list as I don't care for heavily tooled characters I simply don't have the luck for them. I do enjoy killing them though! In fact that why I would be against a 30point rule.

[James 40K Champ ***]

When we 1st started restricting things, there was the odd grumble as most people were thinking about what they now couldnt take, I remember myself thinking, aww that sucks.

But it very quickly became apparant to everyone how much more balanced it makes the game, and with balace means tactics with base troops DO win the game, which we love.