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Post by Charly on Dec 12, 2005 11:28:42 GMT 1
ok ive been looking a lot at all the units in the dark angels second company, the ravenwing. initially to work out the points for a ravenwing landspeeder with multimelta and heavy flamer, sounds easy, but.... worked out as in dark millenium a ravenwing landspeeder with those weapons would cost 225 pts! this obviously seems far too much considering the normal landspeeder only costs 145. and the normal landspeeder with the ravenwing varient weapons (assualt cannon and heavy bolter) would cost 115 pts. hence my first problem.
The bikes and attack bikes work out fine, i subtracted the pts for the weapons on each and then worked out the percentage difference from the codex bikes, this gave me the cost of the ravenwing ability for a bike. it worked out around 18% for both.
However when the same calculation is applied to the landspeeder the percentage increase is 145% for the ravenwing ability. needless to say im confused.
The other thing i noticed is that the master of the ravenwing may ride in a ravenwing landspeeder for only 120pts... obviously displacing one crew member but otherwise not effecting the landspeeders armourment. the master of the ravenwing also costs the same points as the ordinary master, even tho he has both the ravenwing ability and the deathwing ability. the only downside being he has to either ride a bike or a (very cheap) landspeeder.
Conclusion... Ravenwing is messed up and i need help/advice.
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Post by tturen on Dec 17, 2005 5:37:13 GMT 1
Raven Wing speeders with assualt cannons were priced based on their value in the game for that particular weapons fit as determined by playtesting. A melta version should be cheaper I would think simply because it has to get close to be effective as opposed to the ass. cans dodge and hide from range.
I'll have to locate my old Angels codex to check the prices and specific rules.
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Post by Charly on Dec 17, 2005 15:30:11 GMT 1
yeah i think they should be cheaper, maybe both a bit cheaper, as far as points for weapons goes assault cannon and heavy bolter shud be much cheaper than multi melta and heavy flamer. but as u say it is about context as well with this one.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Jan 5, 2006 4:11:26 GMT 1
without trying to sound harsh I wouldnt worry about it, you strugle with a generic space marrine army which is one of the most reliable and flexible forces you can feild.. starting to toy with advanced army like the ravenwing will result in lots of cool modles which quickly turn into a pile defeats, to get an army like that to perform really takes knowing the troops and tactics inside out.
Im not being a bitch, im speaking from experince, Ive been playing with the nec's, what, 5-6 years now, an advanced army and I used to get whiped out almost every battle, its taken me that time to finnaly get good with it and win a tourny.
Ravenwing is just uber specialist thou. If u got money to burn fair enuf. i mite get sisters of battle which is on the same lines
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Post by Charly on Jan 5, 2006 12:50:28 GMT 1
yeah i agree, i was originally gonna just make the same army in ultramarines to field a fast attack army when i felt like it, but thought it wud b more interesting as a dark angel army using a few ravenwing units, il still keep ultramarines as my main army and tournament army probably. army so far includes, 2 assault squads with jump-packs etc, 2 bike squadrons, 2 attack bikes, 2 land speeders, predator, scouts, n a few characters on bikes. thers lots of flamers, heavy flamers and multimeltas. ur rite it will take me a lot of getting used to but its all good fun!
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Post by Charly on Jan 5, 2006 14:17:27 GMT 1
decided to go with the standard ravenwing equiping for both landspeeders now (thats assault cannon and heavy bolter) keeping the points cost of 195. works nicely into a squadron for 400 points giving both turbo charged engines 21" + on first turn, mmn -3 to hit.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Jan 5, 2006 22:51:06 GMT 1
Yeah that definatly sounds like a very fun army!  Ive decided I am going to collect sisters of battle, which will be a challenge to play with, but endless fun at the same time. Still keeping necrons as my tourny army |
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Post by Charly on Jan 6, 2006 1:45:03 GMT 1
*voultenteers to be nuns with guns training dummy*
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Jan 6, 2006 2:31:03 GMT 1
heh cool, theyve got some really interesting units and i love the character of them and the minatures are pretty cool too
BURN ALL THE UNPURE!!!
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Post by Charly on May 24, 2006 10:43:01 GMT 1
ok back to this debate with ravenwing landspeeders. ok the cost of one with assault cannon and h.bolter is 195, my question is
a) can ravenwing field the other weapon variants? (multimelta/heavy flamer etc)
b) how much should it cost? in theory its 225, which seems to high to me, but it would b a powerful unit.
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Post by Charly on May 24, 2006 10:44:12 GMT 1
just as a point, i dont think other marine armies shud b able to field the ravenwing variant weapons.
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Post by tturen on May 25, 2006 5:32:19 GMT 1
Last time I checked no official weapons swaps were listed for this unit. It's fairly traditional to allow this though. A marine speeder is 145 with flamer/melta. I suppose its worth more to the Ravens in terms of points but not like the Raven wing Ass Cann version. I'd put it at roughly 160 points or so myself and in our group at least we would allow it.
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Post by Charly on May 25, 2006 8:40:02 GMT 1
its just that the flamer/melta combo costs far more than the assualt cannon h.bolter one. so having it less points would seem odd. but then again only ravenwing should really have the ass/bolt combo i think.
if we use the same percentage difference in points from a space marine bike to a ravenwing bike (around +18%) then we get 171 points for the flamer/melta ravenwing speeder. which seems ok to me.
the ass/bolt combo could be counted as a specialised unit. but then the problem comes say if someone wants to field a speeder with a mix of the two combos, like heavy bolter and heavy flamer, or even worse mulit melta and assault cannon! i think the ideal senerio would be having a base cost of the ravenwing landspeeder that we can add weapons or weapon combos onto.
i propose a cost of 105 for the base ravenwing speeder, that gives 195 with flamer/melta combo, and 165 for the ass/bolt. i realise the ravenwing points have been tested out, but either way the points give away the same amount of victory points and they make arkward sizes for squadrons. wot do ppl reckon to that?
the flamer/melta combo is more desirable for me to have, but only in the context of the army im doing... 'speed scorch' sums it up really, to steal a name from magic.
another point. dark angels can actually field normal bikes, attack bikes and land speeders according to the flavour text of the army organisation. all the battle companies have access to bikes etc, as do some of the reserve companies. just an interesting thing ive never heard pointed out before.
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Post by El Capitan on May 25, 2006 10:10:47 GMT 1
but on that point, ravenwing speeders shouldnt have other armies combo's in counter
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Post by El Capitan on May 25, 2006 10:33:21 GMT 1
I should really read all of the 'last 25 posts' rather than replying to the first one I come across (lowest up). Back to original discussion a couple of months back, the combo with +18% points seems fair enough.
Should other armies have access to heavy bolters and assault cannons on speeders though? Me and Luke were discussing him putting a spare assault cannon he has from the new land speeder box, onto an attack bike.
As a note on your ravenwing, have they made updated models? In 2nd ed they released land speeders and bikes adorned with the company 'aesthetics'
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Post by Charly on May 25, 2006 16:20:52 GMT 1
the ravenwing is the key strength of the dark angels really, they dont have veterans as such, the deathwing are expensive really for what you get over normal terms. on one hand i think assault cannon shud b kept for ravenwing only, but at the same time dont think theres any reason to restrict the use of them. if there allowed on speeders, why not attack bikes. but then comes the luke army with assault cannons everywhere.
so can i plan an army using the 18% thing? what about points for the ass/bolt combo? using the same 18% u wud get 136 points for the ravenwing ass/bolt.. thats nearly 90 points less... hmm
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Post by Charly on May 25, 2006 16:22:32 GMT 1
GW dude the other day sed they have ravenwing models in the pipeline. annoyingly i have most of my army now. ther is already a ravenwing bike squadron which is ok, speeder is just the same tho. i think they are re-doing the deathwing terms too.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on May 25, 2006 17:40:39 GMT 1
I thought havin an assult cannon on the bottom was a standard armament? :s
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Post by tturen on May 26, 2006 7:02:34 GMT 1
I'd stick with the codex cost for the Raven speeder given how deadly such a unit is. As for the marine version being used by them +18% sounds perfectly fine.
Now if standard marines want to use the Raven version it should be a two way street with Raven cost -18%.
I can't see that a base cost for the Raven speeder itself would work. As GW itself indicated some weapons are just more deadly than others even if the weapons platform is the same. The cost of any unit should in the end be determined by just how dangerous it is in battle.
An assault bike with an Ass Cann? No thanks or at least only with an opponents permission. That would be one nasty beast given its mobility. Like any altered vehicle it should require opponet approval anyway and the cost should be considerably higher for such a unit compared to a standard attack bike.
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Post by El Capitan on May 26, 2006 10:41:48 GMT 1
An assault cannon on a bike would be hell, at least unit coherency can marginalise the damage from a multi-melta.
The assault cannon on a bike was jsut a passing idea, from a look through someones bits box
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