The Battle for 2nd edition

[James 40K Champ ***]

From an interview on the GW site, thought thier sarcastic reply was funny.

--------------------

"The idea I went for is kind of like Mega Man. These Space Marines are wearing some burly armour, so why aren't their guns just part of the armour?"

Because...because...the Emperor said so!

----------------

its a tard question really thou, there are vertually no advantages to have a gun as part f your armour and more than a handful of good reasons for not.

This is his minature:

[El Capitan]

I cant think of any reason why id want a gun integrated as part of my armour. How would you reload? What happens when it heats up and the armour burns off? Why is 99% of sci-fi so damn its not even intersting?
I like 40k becuase its based on real warfare and then just given a gothic sci-fi (ish) slant. This sucks arse and would probably be a hit misfire result the second it fired.

For some 2nd ed trivia, only howling banshee's have the pack grenade launcher fully integrated into their armour, and its a very refined and genereally sucky weapon. Terminators are actually deatched from their weapons and instead have various bits that keep it suported to their body!

[James 40K Champ ***]

yeah, its a crappy idea

How will he crawl,
How will he reload,
How will he climb,
How will he fight close combat,
How will he fight a war in general.

appart from the idea being tard, I thought the GW answer was hillarious, rather than simply giving a few of those answers and saying shut up, they simply reply 'Cos the Emperor said so'

lol

[James 40K Champ ***]

Necrons are as close as it comes, appearing to power their weapons from their own internal power source, and looks like they trigget it automatically as well, but even so they still have the freedom and flexibility to weild their gun as is nescesarry.


hmm, im going to bed

[Adoni-Zedek]

Howling Banshees get pack grenade launchers? I thought they were stuck with angry flashlights, power swords, and banshee masks.

Some Harlequins could take them.

3rd Edition lost me when they said: "Space Marine vehicles are fast, able to keep up with the fast-moving infanty"

Now really, when has that EVER been a problem? Not since WWI, and the first generation tanks.

Infantry is tough, able to withstand lots of incoming fire (marines in heavy cover), and strong, able to destroy even heavy battletanks at close range (The man with the krak grenade. Incidentally, do you guys give him the extra +d12 penetration for a S6 weapon in close combat?). It is also very slow. 2nd Edition does a great job of portraying this.

Another game that does a great job of portraying the strengths and weaknesses of infantry is Panzerblitz^TM by Avalon Hill. (One of my favorite games, if only I could find some opponents)

Third edition sped up the troops, slowed down the vehicles, shortened all the weapon ranges, and then they wondered why the whole thing degenerated into a close-combat fest! (I'm okay, I'm okay. I just had to get that rant out. I'll be fine, I promise. <pant, pant>)

[LukeG]

Don't worry about ranting, you've come to the right place for that!

adonizedek said:

Incidentally, do you guys give him the extra +d12 penetration for a S6 weapon in close combat?

This may well have solved a lot of debating over krak grenade power vs heavy vehicles. The problem is, I don't think it works. How would it apply to Melta Bombs?

[Adoni-Zedek]

The rules state that basic weapons used in close combat get a bonus to armor penetration based on their strength: S4-5: +d6; S6-7: +d12; S8-10: +d20. This was to represent troops firing into vision slits, air intakes and exhausts, and access panels. If you look at the close combat weapons, you will note that they already get this. Heavy weapons are too unwieldy to use, but meltabombs can be stuck to vulnerable locations, and krak grenades can be shoved into air intakes, etc, etc.

MeltaBombs, being S8, and causing d6 wounds (though they can't be used on models with wounds----except for wraithguard, I guess), get an armor penetration of 8+2d6+d20, for a maximum penetration of 40, with an average of 25.5. Not bad at all. I beleive the Wargear book omits the +d20, but I always assumed this was an oversight on their part. They're supposed to be able to blow anything, but their penetration tops out at 20? Where as a krak grenade (6+2d6+d12) tops out at 30. Why would anyone ever take meltabombs, if Krak grenades are better?

Incidentally, do meltabombs work against tyranid biotanks? I always assumed they were magnetic, or something, so that's how you attached them. The rules state only models with an armor value, so acording to rules I guess it's fine. Acording to fluff--who knows?

[James 40K Champ ***]

It would be fine against tyranids, you treat them like normal.

There was a similar issues where necrons disrupting tyranid weaponry was concearned. They ruled in a white dwarf that nids weaponry uses bio electronic force (or something) ans so is still effected..

Ive never come accorss that rule for cc with vehicles myself (but i by no means no all the rules), and I dont think we have used it.. but we should.

[Adoni-Zedek]

This was in the basic 2nd Ed Rulebook, the one with the Crimson Fists' last stand on the cover. I believe it was in the vehicles section, but I'm not sure. Have to check it when I get home.

<later>Got it! pg 82 of the rulebook.
The entry for Melta Bombs doesn't actually list penetration, but if you calculated it out, that's what it would look like. The BattleBible gets it wrong, leaving off the +d20 for close combat. The entry actually refers you to the vehicle rules for that part.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Yeah - we virtually never ever go through the rules, we always have people present who 'know everything' but there probably are the odd rule which always get overlooked.. small things like this.

Think i might read the rulebook

Remember gorkmorka.. there was a rule called 'pined' where youths and grots fall over if u shoot at them (LOL), but we could never ever remember to do it!

[tturen]

The grenades section of the weapons list has meltabombs as D6+D20+8 and GW listed the CC total as 2D6+D20+8 (The extra D6 coming with all CC attacks anyway but clearly not included in the weapons list or they just forgot the D6 wounds take your pick....) in a faq just as you would expect from a CC weapon with the listed strength and damage. Those are rules we have always used.

We also add the D12 to krack under the CC rules although I don't think I've ever seen a basic trooper survive long enough to take advantage of the rule. Certainly a Jump troopers could but those guys can be points sinks even without krack grenades and tend to specialize anyway.

Its worth noting that special weapons like melta guns can also be used in CC and gain the bonus D6 for CC and like all CC attacks another D6 bonus against stationary vehicles. All that adds up pretty fast.

[El Capitan]

we went the other way with the D6 bonus and only apply it against stationary vehicles. we came to the conclusion from the stat lines of the weapon profiles as mentioned above and its worked perfectly, vehicles never seem to survive close combat without an extra D6 bonus as it is. Tanks are a firghtening thing for the standard foot trooper anbd it takes the specialists to come in to bring them down.
For example, whislt a hit through a vision slit from a bolt pistol, bouncing around and causing some majopr damage is possible, when the vehicle is moving at speed it is incredibly unlikely, from using the SA 80 in training i know full well that ive just about as much chance of doing dmage to a tank from 300m as i do whislt stood on top of it.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I agree with that. Tanks do get trounced in cmbat most of the time anyway, espesh with lovely assult troops armed with melta bombs, i love that option.

Its so true about firing in real life, without offence, people are so deluded through the media of computer games and film, firing in real life really is nothing like either of them.

My mate vic who I live with is heavily into gaming and is currently on the design team for a Vietman mod on halflife2 (and its looking tres sexy) and Im always going on at him about how unrealistic css is (a play it a fair bit too). I think his game is going to be somewhere between BF2 and CSS.. they are going for realism, not arcadnes. he dont need to code it much though, hes a level designer.

[tturen]

So you guys dropped the D6 bonus for all CC attacks against vehicles (Stationary excepted)? Did I read that correctly?

[El Capitan]

Yes, for example a marine in combat with a vehicle would get D6 + 4 armour pen, rising to 2D6 + 4 if the vehicle is stationary. In effect a marine cannot punch his way into a moving tank, though it may be possible for him to sobatage something vital given te time time to concentrate an attack. To actually to destroy the thing he'd need to plant a melta bomb are use a power fist or other anti-vehicle weapon.

[Charly]

the rulebook isnt very clear on this, on page 81 it outlines all the armour penetration values for all the major weapons, il use the same example as them and take the power fist, which has penetration D6 + D20 +8. on the next page (82) there is a chart which outlines bonus dice to penetration depending on the attackers strength, below which it gives an example of a terminator attacking with a power fist having a penetration of D6 + D20 + 8 (note only one D6!) so gw obviously just intended the chart on pg 82 to be an explination of how a weapon or attackers armour penetration is worked out. the chart on pg 81 with all the weapons already includes this bonus.

to break it down still using the power fist example:

D6 + D20 + 8

D6 is derived from the strength of the user as the table on pg82 dictates. attacker strength 4 > +1D6
D20 comes from the strength of the weapon, which is 8 > +1D20
and 8 is the strength of the weapon.

analising it that way leads me onto the question, if a strength 6 attacker used a power fist would the penetraion be D12 + D20 + 8 ??

[Charly]

in other words would a power fist (or any CC weapon) do the same damage no matter what the strength of the user?

[El Capitan]

as far as Im aware, only models with str. 4-5 use these weapons anyway. The only exceptions are when the str. is increased by things such as iron arm, or deamonic enchancement, so i guess the D6 bonus could change in these cases.

[Charly]

there must be some strength 6 units with normal wargear?

[James 40K Champ ***]

Does the strength of a weilder of a cc weapon affect what strength is used in cc?

Or do cc weapons stay at the same st whatever