The Battle for 2nd edition

[Charly]

hey , glad u found us, just out of interest how did you come accross the site? keep posting! input from second ed players is always most welcome.

[El Capitan]

yet another 40k player of the hallowed version. How big is your gaming group etc? What do you play etc etc, its always good to make more contact in the 2nd ed 'underground'. If your intersted you may wish to join our annual tournament next summer, jumping the gun yes but the more ppl we get to our 2nd ed tournament the more we can show gw how pl are going out of their way to play a better game.
2nd ed really is like 40k advcanced edition now, it does need some tweaks, in partic we changed the clsoe combat to the warhammer one with engaged models beign immune to psychology when engaged in base contact. Works really well, gives the same results as before but is much faster, and it requires pretty much no modifications to any of the stats or weapons etc. (except parry, we made this a re-roll to hit).

[tturen]

I once thought 2nd edition players were rare. However a trip to local game store durring an odds and ends 40k sale disspelled that belief rather quickly. Sadly our group has had to turn players away for lack of space. Now if I could only get other members from my group to post...

[LukeG]

Welcome new member!
And I'm glad to see the HofH/Eastern Fringe guys are still around too.

[Charly]

absolutly, give everyone in ur group the address of the site!

[Agresiel]

is second ed the one with -6 to savthrows and terminators have two sav dice

i play the one with ap and single dice sav throws
as i think its better i hated the way that you could have a really really really hard creature eg bloodthirster that was almost guranted to die from a shot from a assult cannon it was ridiculous as you could almost never hide him which made it useles the new rules are much better and give hard characters the credit they desirve insted of just dying to a shot of a heavy weapon
oh and all the range of weapons were ridiculas as not that many boards were over 6ft and yet almost all heavy weapons were super long range
oh also overwatch was shit as it often made the game stop as yopu were to afaird to move in case of the super duper army killing heavy weapons of shite

if only i was in the game i would kill them all and have a unmodified save of 2+ on 2 dice
or a invunrerable save of 1+
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Simon]

as an interesting point, in 5th Ed. Warhammer there was a daemon character with a save of 1+ that was unmodified against normal attacks...

[tturen]

The Thirster will survive sustained fire ass can hits roughly 50% of the time in 2nd ed and yes a laz can is -6 save the ass can is only -3.

It sounds like you play 3rd or 4th the editions where grenades dont kill stuff but pistols can destroy tanks...

The realism (overwatch, weapons ranges, grenades that work, etc.) within 2nd ed can be a pain if you are in a hurry to simply roll buckets of dice and move onto the next game.

Most of the people that play 2nd edition play it for the details built into the game system. It is slower. Its also more thoughtfully constructed except of course for the editing...

[Charly]

which of ogcs edits arent thoughtfully constructed?

[Agresiel]

pistols can only kill tanks if all these points are followed:
1)the tank gets close enough 12"
2) armour value is 10 (mainly rear unless shit tank)
3) your stupid enough to leave your rear exposed (then it deserves to die)
4)you need to roll a 6 on armour penetration and then a 6 AGAIN on the glancing table
5)if its a apc then the people in it should have gotten out and killed all threats if its not then it should be used well enough that it never faces that problem unless you are a flawed player

about other stuff
you roll a lot more dice in 2nd ed than 4th ed i remember hand to hand often resorted to useing mugs to roll as the were so many dice and as for shooting well thats pretty much the same ,weapon ranges are not more realistic as almost all h wepons streched out over all the board im sorry but if it were a sniper rifle then sure why not but they are not and these ranges were designed with certian general board sizes in mind but the majorty of people dont have the luxury of turning a whole room into a permanent battlefield like in games workshop, new editions understand that and as the game grew and expanded then the needed to be more armys and the rules had to change so it could be played without resorting to the bible (rule book) every phase in a turn oh yeah almost forgot psyker wars just got tidious and if you want realism the you wouldnt play this game thats the point of it isnt it? and battles in the future are more likely to end with pushing of buttons and not battlefield combat hand to hand and long range weapons

i have never played the OGC edit but no offence i am sure you cant really intermingle the editions without having MAJOR and i mean major unfair advantages that are carfully worked out and changed as the game grows in second ed we all know that space maines were favoured and tyranid were invincable (thanks to regeneration) orks were pointless literally imperial gaurd and eldar just got bullied and chaos were always behind space marines in everything
oh so because the defected they cant develop their own tech, just deamons (bollocks)
tau and necron dont exist so their rules are developed i guess by examining their current codex and transfering stats-ish as all stats are downgraded in further editions this will definatly cause unfair advantages so i would be very interested to see the rules and how it plays

to be honest i am disapointed that you dont play all versions instead of an emalgamation as it cant really work........can it?

you people are like grandparents always going on about the good old days

no school like the old school

[El Capitan]

in defence of our 40k;
we use warhammer combat system, its much faster and in practice produces identical results to the other combat system almost every time. Thus its much faster and does not require accumulating amounts of dice.
sniper rifles in practice do not have longer ranges, if youve ever fired one you'll understand, itds jsut more refined and easier to hit. The mass ranges occur on heavy weapons, simply because thats what they are, gigantic weapons that shouldbe able to deliver their fire anywhere.
in OGC edition the charcter limits have put an end to psyker dominance. As does lascannons most of the time.
and as for rolling more dice in the game, that means the game is less likely to be decide randomly
space marines and tyranids have the lowest win ratio in OGC
orks are nothing like IG, dont quite get that one, except for takeing guard tnaks but thats been severly limited. Other than that there completely different in tactics and composition
imperial gaurd and eldar have the most hard hitting things but its countered with them being less resilient
Chaos altough being similar to marines play very differnetly, and have different adavantages, i never use daemons either

and id rather be a granddad with a good pension than a young man with an unfulfilling work

[tturen]

By 'edits' I'm reffering to GW's lack of clarity and poor editing in general. Now as far as OGC 'edits' go I have some reservations I've noted on other threads but I would include the h2h mods as well.

"pistols can only kill tanks if all these points are followed:"

The fact that it can happen at all is the problem in the first place. Anything not immune to small arms is NOT a TANK unless its in a deeply flawed game system.

"you roll a lot more dice in 2nd ed than 4th ed i remember hand to hand often resorted to useing"

Dice rolls in buckets are for units and 4th is a unit based game. 2nd ed tends to be a model based game and dice tend to rolled on an individual basis particularly in h2h.

",weapon ranges are not more realistic as almost all h wepons streched out over all the board "

Reality check: Heavy weapons have long ranges. This is why GW said "The more terrain the better the game." This helped prevent an over emphasis on HW's in the first place. The effects of HW's in the open are realistic and leathal.


"im sorry but if it were a sniper rifle then sure why not but they are not and these ranges were designed with certian general board sizes in mind but the majorty of people dont have the luxury of turning a whole room "

Unless I missed something all version of the game are designed for a 4x8 board although all can be played on a smaller surface that becomes more problematic in 4th given the size increase of the armies involved as allowed in the more simplistic rule set.

"the game grew and expanded then the needed to be more armys and the rules had to change so it could be played without resorting to the bible (rule book) "

Codex growth can be more easily accomplished in 2nd ed with its allowance for vastly increased varriabilty in units and abilities.

Middle schoolers where however often challenged by the more complex rules. The changes were in part driven by this and GW's desire to sell more models was enhanced by simplistic rules that made for larger armies. Its all part of the $ale$ model.

psyker wars just got tidious and if you want realism the you wouldnt play this game thats the point of it isnt it?

I always have loved psykers but they tended to be weak in my experience unless they were eldar of course. These guys are however realistic in the 40k setting.

The lack of realism though is the reason I don't play 3rd/4th. To over simplified for my tastes.

"ed we all know that space maines were favoured and tyranid were invincable (thanks to regeneration) "

Space Marines are possibly the weakest army in 2nd ed. That feeling is nearly universal. Tyranids were also a weaker codex and required a skilled player to perform well.

"orks were pointless "

Orks were one of the the mosty soulful armies in the game. Shear personality anf varriability as well as humor drove them as the most well detailed army in the game.

"literally imperial gaurd and eldar just got bullied "

Imperial Guard are in my opinion the best army in 2nd ed. So good in fact I all but stopped playing them as they just steamrolled other armies. Eldar offer more cheese than a chedder factory and are often considered the top 40k army.

"and chaos were always behind space marines in everything "

The Chaos army has a superior codex and is stronger in terms of game play than the marines and has more style as well.

"tau and necron dont exist so their rules are developed i guess by examining their current codex and transfering stats-ish"

Necrons existed in 2nd ed. Tau though have been converted. I know I helped convert the codex to 2nd ed and the stats are aligned with 2nd ed rules whenever possible.

"to be honest i am disapointed that you dont play all versions"

Some players do play them all. As it stands though our 2nd ed group already has to many players and none of them like the 3rd or 4th rules.

"you people are like grandparents always going on about the good old days"

For us time stands still and yesterday remains today in terms of game play. Its all in the details...

"no school like the old school"

Indeed!

[Simon]

"i have never played the OGC edit but no offence i am sure you cant really intermingle the editions without having MAJOR and i mean major unfair advantages"

Our rules set is not a mixing of editions. We changed the close combat rules as noted, but most other rules changes have been to add detail, so we can't have used 3/4th edition stuff. Even work done by players to convert codexes to a 2ed equivalent have added more detail to simplistic rules and the stats have had to be changed anyway due to 3/4th ed's different statlines. We thoroughly playtest any work that we do, and edit points costs accordingly, which is something that GW don't do anymore (Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves mods and the Chapter Approved fiasco for 3ed).

It's not living in the past, it's enjoying the hobby in the way we want to...

[Agresiel]

like i said i will have to see it to belive that it is better i am interested as i said but cant help thinking that you may have taken the game and modifyed it to your tastes so much that not many people from the outside would want to play it and isnt that what ogc is about community playing
mike i my last post i didnt say orks are like IG i said orks are pointless literally and IG and eldar got bullied
the reason i say orks are pointless was because i once witnessed a 4500 point battle between orks and space marines and space marines pissed all over them oh and tyranids were hard regeration meant that they almost never died trust me
oh and the fact a tank can be killed by pistols represents the fact that tanks ARE NOT invincable and if i remember correctly once all the heavy weapons were dead if you had lots of tanks then you couldnt win at all at least now it gives you a slim glimer of a chance

i remember now why space marines were so good they had lascannons and lots of them from what i remember lascannons seemed to dominate the game the more you have the quicker the win
you said it yourself mike " As does lascannons "
anyway
still i would like to see it in action when would this be possible?

[El Capitan]

I would say the 3/4th ed were good for expanding the hobby and getting ppl intersted with a simple rules base. Sometimes the detail of 2nd ed. can be overwhelming and the actual realism factors are usually so surprisng to new players that they are overhwelmed by what can actually hapen on a 2nd ed battlefield.
In a way 2nd ed is basically 40k advanced edition, and in terms the most significant change weve made is to the combat system but its simply a quicker way of achieving the same thing. Other than that there are lots of little bits changed all over the palce but generally to get a more satisfying and fair game, there are still bound to be holes that need plastering in our version but thanks to consultations with other groups like tturens we are fixing our system to be as equal as possible.

I went to 3rd when it came out but the game becme to methodical, and i missed having squads being pinned down and having a battle plan going to hell, in essence my expereince training with the army as an officer has cemented my love of 2nd ed, and as tturen points out 2nd ed is on a more indiviual model basis which is why it takes longer to play, but in 2nd one lone man with a krak grenade can make all the difference and its those moemnts that keep me in the hobby. In honest if i couldnt play 2nd i wouldnt play 40k at all. As a note i look forward to trying other peoples 2nd ed rules, to everyone the core 2nd is the same but groups have modified it to their tastes but even with my disagreements on other groups rules i would gladly play with them safe in the knwoledge that im still going to get a full tactical wargames experience.

Bascially, come and try our rules, we woudltn tell you to stop playing 3/4th but hopefulyl youll see the difference of 2nd and be prepared to play our version with us too in the future. The games play evry differnetly, and whislt in the new versions someitmes it can be good to knock a game off in short time, i prefer each squad going down to the last man and nothing being finished until its literally destroyed.

As a note, roll a double 6 to pentrate with a krak grenade will penetrate any vehicle (thats a mod by us) so even a stormtrooper can bring down a tank. Also in general taks can be taken out the game simply by moving into cover and forcing veghicles to spend an entire battle maneouvering.

Last word, i dotn want this to be a slanging match, like a console argument, more peopel saying why they like their versions of the game. End of the day 40k is your own hobby and even the stroyline is your own interpretation....which is why Chaos are glorious freedom fighters to liberate mankind form the tyranny of Terra ;D

[Agresiel]

i am not a new player and i understood 2nd ed rules and like you mike i switched to 3rd ed and i liked the changes that were made so that the game could be played without massive amounts of time being spent i to enjoyed tactics andd feel that the new rules are lacking somwhat in that department however i still remain open and would like to play a few games for old times sake
where ? and when?

ps this was never a slanging match and if i was heading in that direction then i would have done a long time ago i am actually interested in the way that it plays.

[tturen]

When GW introduced 3rd edition they spoke of continueing to support 2nd edition. The reason? They viewed 2nd ed as a more tactical and detailed skirmish game. That was before they betrayed their words though and completely failed to support 2nd edition.

I think when you play 2nd edition again you will find the army remarks you have made will have to reconsidered. Now if I played 3rd/4th some of my positions might have to reconsidered as well but I have read the complete rule set and own several works 3ed works myself. If I wanted to play huge armies in a short time span I might even play the newer edition...

[El Capitan]

were playin a lot of games at the moment so maybe some time this week?

[Agresiel]

mike could you pm me with times and dates and locations of these games when you can just to make sure that i dont miss them if they were posted on the main boards

i dislike 3rd ed its 4th ed that is far better the codex for chaos is much better unlike the one in 3rd ed which made me change from a choas player to a full on tyranid player now i like to play both.

[LukeG]

No more feedback Tom/Agresiel? You've played some 2ndE games, and if you're confident you can expliot the system practise some more then take it to the OGC tournament in the Summer.