Alternate rules inc AC Stats, Psychic phase..

[ortron]

G'day,

I'm finally at home again and are looking to get some more games in with my mates. I'm also looking at making a few mods to the existing rules and will probably look at pinching a few ideas from around here.

2 things I'm keen on feed back are a change to the Assault cannon, to make its use a bit different in games, and experimenting with the psychic phase to something similar to warhammer's magic phase, mainly to speed it up a little but still retain all the fun of a warp deck and cards.

Firstly the AC. I found it a little strange that this beast had almost the same hitting power as a krak missile and was harder hitting than an autocannon but was of a smaller caliber and barrel length etc.

My idea is to drop its strength to 6 and damage to d6 but boost its Sus Fire dice to 4. That way the weapon will still chew apart troops but won't be a guaranteed killer of tanks and everything else (less of a no-brainer choice). It will still blow on 3 jams so people will need to consider firing smaller bursts when on foot troopers but can probably go nuts on a dread since the 1 reroll of sus fire wpn rule. I'll trial it at the same price for now i think.

4 dice may seem crazy but its on par with TL HBs and thats still only a 2 barrel weapon. By doing this I hope to make it a tougher choice between an AC or Cyclone/HB and also make the weapon a little different from a short range krak missile launcher. Thoughts?

Another idea I'm working on is having all the usual psychic powers in tables and using power/force dice similar to magic. The powers will be performed by meeting the force roll eg 5+, 8+ or 12+ for eg. Nullifies will be performed by using the oppositions pool of dice etc.
Caster is higher - power works
Scores are equal - look up table (reflection, destroy power, energy drain)
Defender higher - nullify

on caster rolling 2 or more natural 6s - Ultimate Force
defender rolling 2 or more natural 6s - Demonic Attack

I hope something like this will make the less than lev 4 psykers a little more useful as not only will they boost the force pool they can also be of more use offensively.

To start with I'll try a simple conversion of force cards to roll required so 1 card = 5+, 2 cards = 8 + and 3 cards = 12+. This is just a guess but the idea is to make the rolls above average for 1, 2 and 3 dice. I'll then look at what powers people thing are too crud or too good and alter accordingly.

The other plus of this system will be each psyker has the same chance of getting a power as the one before him and you won't be assured of getting the power you want. but you might get multiples of powers across different guys.

ok enough for now, comments?

Cheers

Ortron

[Adoni-Zedek]

Here's what we do for psychic powers:

Instead of the usual rules for dealing out warp cards during each psychic phase, and trading off attempting to use powers, this alternate method may be used:

At the start of the game, each player is dealt 2 warp cards, plus one per level 4 psyker they have in their army. These cards are retained in hand until used, and are not discarded when the “Energy Drain” card is played. At no time may you have more warp cards than two plus the number of Level 4 psykers you have remaining in the game. If you lose a level 4 psyker, and have too many cards in your hand, you must randomly discard one.

The actual Psychic Phase is completely done away with, and psykers are allowed to initiate psychic powers at any point during the controlling player’s turn.

Psychic powers have a difficulty rating based on the number off force cards required to initiate them. To use a power, roll 2d6, and compare the result to the table below. If your result is greater or equal to the difficulty level, the power is successfully cast.

Force Cost of Power (Difficulty Rating)
1 (7)
2 (9)
3 (11)

The roll is subject to the following modifiers:
+2 per force card played
+/-1 if psyker’s level is higher/lower than highest-level psyker in enemy army
-1 per psychic hood in your opponent’s army currently on the table
+1 to +3 bonus from Waaagh! test or force weapon
Note that the maximum modifier to the roll is +5. Any bonus points that would take it higher are lost.

Force weapons capable of storing force cards grant a bonus to the power check equal to +1 per capacity of the weapon. This bonus must be divided among all the powers the psyker wishes to initiate this turn. A force rod could bestow a +3 bonus to one power, or +1 to three powers, or a +1 to one power, and +2 to another. Some force weapons give the option of expending a force card for a bonus to strength, etc. You may choose to trade one or more of your bonus points for this close combat bonus at the beginning of the close combat phase, before any dice are rolled. It will last through this turn and your opponent’s turn, ending at the start of your next close combat phase.

Summoning points for Tzeentch are based on the force cost of each power successfully initiated, including those nullified by a card or other effect (mark of Tzeentch, etc).

Because psykers can only initiate powers on their own turn, they gain a discount equal to ½ their mastery level cost. This amounts to a discount of 12.5pts per mastery level (15pts for chaos). Hive Tyrants and Genestealer Patriarchs pay half cost for their powers instead.

A Force card may be played to give a psyker a +2 bonus to one power initiation check.
A Nullify card may be played during your opponent’s turn (not your own!) to nullify one psychic power automatically.
The Ultimate Force card may be used to automatically use a power, without needing a power check. The power cannot be nullified on the turn it is initiated.
The Destroy Power card will automatically nullify an offensive power on the turn it is initiated, and has the normal chance to destroy the power permanently, even if the power is not used near or against an enemy psyker. No force cards may be used to affect the outcome.
The Daemonic Attack card functions as listed on the card. Chaos, Ork, and Inquisition psykers may reroll the die when this card is played against them, but must abide the result of the second roll.
The Psychic Duel card only knocks the power out of play for the duration of the battle, the losing psyker gains it back before the next battle.
The Reflection card can be used against any offensive power, as long as it is used within 6” of one of your units (not necessarily a psyker.
The Energy Drain card cancels all powers currently in play, and prevents the initiation of further powers for one entire turn. This means the next player misses his psychic phase as well. Players do not discard warp cards they may have in their hands when this card is played.

Powers which remain in play will end at the beginning of the initiating player’s next turn unless the psyker passes a standard leadership test for each. (This represents opposing psykers using nullify cards,

Ork Weirdboys:
Orks may treat any of their warp cards as force cards if desired.
Ork weirdboys gain a bonus to their power checks based on the number of orks and gretchin within 12” of them when they use their powers. They gain a +1 bonus for every 2 waaagh! points they have, to be divided as desired among all the powers they intend to initiate this turn. Consult the table below at the start of each ork turn, using the single line generating the most waaaagh! power.

Models within 12” (Waaagh! Power)
Any gretchin (1)
1-5 Orks (2)
6-10 Orks (3)
11+ Orks (any Madboyz) (4)

Note that unless a weirdboy has escaped his minders, he always has at least 2 waaagh! power. If any orks were involved in close combat during the previous full turn he gains +2 to the result. If the weirdboy has no Waaagh! Power (Waaagh! power, not bonus psychic points) he may not initiate any powers this turn, but may still use special warp cards (psychic duel, nullify, etc).
The weirdboy must roll equal to or higher than his waaagh! power on 1d6, adding his mastery level to the roll to successfully control the waaagh! If the total is equal to or higher than his waaagh! power, proceed to initiate powers as normal. If not, he must roll on the ‘Eadbangers table below. Note that a weirdboy staff lets you re-roll the power control test, not the ‘Eadbangers roll.

Die roll (d6) ‘Eadbanger
1 ‘Eadbang!: Weirdboy’s head explodes, models within 1d6 inches also head-explode if they roll over their toughness on 1d6
2 “I fink I’m gonna…” Weirdboy passes out until start of player’s next psychic phase, models in base contact head-explode if they roll over their toughness on 1d6
3 “I’ve fergot!” Weirdboy loses one random psychic power for the game, cannot initiate powers this turn.
4 “My ‘ead ‘urts” Weirdboy can’t initiate any powers this turn.
5-6 “Yuuurgh!” Weirdboy suffers a -1 penalty to one power check of your choice this turn.

Tyranids:
Tyranids are unable to purchase force weapons, and miss out on bonus points. To remedy this, any Tyranid psykers may purchase 1 to 3 levels of Increased Warp Acumen for 4 points per level. Increased Warp Acumen works like a force weapon, allowing the Tyranid psyker 1 to 3 bonus points for implementing psychic powers.

If playing with models with guess waeponry, it's important to specify the ranges each weapon will shoot prior to measuring distances for any psychic powers each turn.

[tturen]

Can't say that I'm at all familiar with a dice pool magic system. Depending on how its implemented it certainly could work. I coudn't tell exactly how the number of dice would be determined but I assume its 1D6 per level of the caster. That all seems like a huge change though and what if one side has no psykers?

On the assualt cannon I know its been modded by many groups and although the changes you note make perfect sense I've always felt that the weapons lethality is greatly balanced by its high jam rate with terminators having a 50% chance to jam every time they fire. You soon learn to pick targets rather carefully.

[El Capitan]

At present we simply downgraded the assault cannon to D6 damage and 2D6 + 8 armour pene. to bring it in line with the rest of the autocannon family & it stops it being an almost guaranteed tank killer.

I'll have a proper read through the psychic ideas. We tried a dice pool system once though, took a lot of work converting and with some armies it worked but against others it was a disaster, i had to stop using my psyker it was so unfair. In terms of tactics etc and I guess fluidity of play, a good dice pool system will make the psyhcic phase more predicable and whilst maybe less fun, also a lot more strategic.

[ortron]

Cheers for the ideas guys,

I'll post a more detailed look at the dice pool system when i eventually do it up for myself. At present its still in development in my head.

With you Assault cannon idea of D6 damage but still Str 8 do you feel it is costed correctly. I suppose Str is not simply an indication of the kinetic+explosive energy in a round but also the amount of rounds impacting at the target point in the "time period" of a single rolled shot.

ok thanks

[James 40K Champ ***]

Eek, that looks really complicated lol

[Adoni-Zedek]

It's really not that bad at all. Each power is initiated (or not) on a 2d6 roll. And you can get a bonus or a penalty to the roll. Then it's just a matter of figuring out what kind of bonus/penalty you get.

[ortron]

Ok here is my first attempt at putting the psychic ideas to paper/hard disk:

Alternate Psychic Rules

Power Allocation:
All powers in a discipline are listed in a table with a corresponding number, 1-8 or 1-4, depending on the size of that deck. A psyker gets 1 roll on the table for each level, and rerolls doubles. Each psykers powers are rolled individually and they may have the same power as another model in their side. Normal restrictions apply when rolling for powers on the tables, such as 1 roll on their primary table before they can choose to roll on a secondary.

Eg librarian powers are listed 1-8. A level 2 Marine psyker could roll twice in total and may roll on either librarian, Adeptus or Inq tables, for a total of 2 powers.

Power Difficulty:
Instead of requiring Force cards each power has a difficulty which is proportional to the force cards it used to cost to bring into play. Therefore a force 1 powers = difficulty of 5, force 2 powers = difficulty of 8 & force 3 powers = difficulty of 11.

Eg the power Smite is difficulty 12.


Dice Pool
Each player receives a number of Dice equal to the total levels of their psykers + 2.

Eg. if i have a level 4 & a level 2, i would have a pool of 8 dice (4 + 2 + 2).

Psychic Phase:
Players take it in turn to cast a power starting with player whose turn it is. To cast a power a player selects a psyker and one of their powers, names the target, and then allocates a number of dice (from 1 - 5, max = level of psyker + 1) to that attempt. Once the player has allocated the dice they roll those dice and add the scores together, if the total equals the difficulty score of that power or is higher the power is successfully cast/in play.

Eg. A marine player selects his level 2 Librarian, the power quickening, the psyker as the target, and 3 dice. The player now rolls the 3 dice, (1,3 & a 4) and the power is cast as the score = 8, which is equal to or greater than the difficulty of 8 for that power.

Two or more 1s or 6s:
If the psyker rolls 2 or more natural 1s on their casting rolls they are subject to a Daemonic attack, the power is automatically nullified (unless it is also cast with Ultimate Power see below) and roll on the table below:

D6
1-3 The Psyker is dragged into the warp and is killed.
4-6 The Psyker fights off the Daemon and is unharmed.

Modified by: -1 for each dice used in attempt, + 1 for each Psyker level.

Ultimate Power results from 2 or more natural 6s on the casting attempt, if this happens the power works and cannot be nullified this phase. However a subsequent energy drain will cause the power to be removed.

Eg. A player rolls 5 dice for his chief librarian’s attempt to cast Vortex. He rolls 1,1,2,6 & 6. The power works and the vortex sucks up the Ork warlord, but the psyker is himself attacked and must roll a 5 or more on a D6 to survive the attentions of the warp.

Nullify
At this point the opponent may choose to nullify. Choose a psyker to make the nullify attempt, and allocate a number of dice to that attempt (1-5, max = level +1). These dice are then rolled and if the score is higher than the casters the power is nullified, if the scores are equal roll on the table bellow:

D6 roll
1 "In an effort to nullify the power, the defending Psyker psychically earths themself and all psychic energy in the area rushes through them and is drained into the warp". Power is nullified and all dice are discarded and all powers in play are instantly nullified. (ENERGY DRAIN)

2 "The nullify attempt turns into a strong battle of wills between the two psykers'. Power is nullified and both psykers roll a another dice and add their mastery level. The looser permanently looses a random power from their psyker.

3-4 Nullified - continue as normal

5 "Power arcs across the battlefield as both psykers struggle to overcome the other". Both players may add further dice to their attempt as per a normal cast/nullify attempt, with no rerolls, in addition the looser suffers D6 hits of Strength (= Final difference between scores) from psychic feedback. Eg both players roll a further 2 dice, resulting in the defending player winning by 2. The power is nullified as the defender won, and the caster suffers D6 Str 2 hits.

6 "The defending psyker raises a psychic mirror around the target". The power is reflected off its target and travels 4d6" directly towards the caster, passing over terrain and affecting the first model in its path. If the target of the spell was the casting psyker, the power travels in a random direction (roll scatter). If the power is a moving template it continues on next turn from that point unless otherwise removed. If the caster is killed the rouge power continues until nullified.

Psychic Equipment
Force Weapons and the like work as normal but store 1 dice rather than 1 force card. Eg a force rod can store 3 dice.

Psychic Hoods and the like allow you to reroll all dice in the nullify attempts of a psyker who has one. Only the initial dice from the pool, not any rolls on the Nullify Draw table.



Hopefully it isn't much different than the normal system but should quicken things up a little as i hate mucking around with warp cards and mine are a little warn after all these years. I aimed to include all the normal events but included a few minor changes.

Thoughts?

ORTRON

[ortron]

Ooops forgot to add

No Psyker
A force that has no, or has lost all its psykers may still attempt to nullify with a single dice. In the case of a Draw with regards to nullify attempts the power is nullified, and do not roll on the table.

Eg. The Ork player has lost all his psykers and now only receives 2 dice in his dice pool. A Marine pysker rolls 2 dice for a difficulty 5 power and scores a 6. If the ork player can roll a 6 on his 1 dice he will nullify the power.

Waaagghh
Calculate the Waaagh score for each ork psyker as normal. Add one dice to the pool for each psyker who receives a score of 4 or higher.


Obviously it will be rather dangerous not to have a psyker now so this may require some testing. I think what we will find is that not having a psyker is dangerous, but psykers will also be slightly more consistant in their power/influence. Ie a level 4 will be good if he is facing a force with little to no psykers and a force with multiple high level psykers. All that will change is the oppostion's ability to nullify his attacks and he will be required to defend more himself.

Ok cheers, more to come as i think of it.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I dont know what to think on this issue.

the initial rules are fairly complex, which means if you try to change to any alternate rules its fairly hard to get it all balanced. I suppose Ive got limited experience of this part of the game so thats why Im finding it hard to get a good opinion on this issue