Debates and downers

[El Capitan]

Tonights game against Charly {Imperial Guard vs Ultramarines] through out some interesting dilemmas. Charly's vindicator had its track pranged bit as it wasn't moving it was ruled that against the standard rules it would not gp out of control, but after several consultation discussions, it would face a different direction. We also had scenery issues, despite the deployment zones being well covered, once the leman russ tanks came flying on there was no escape [though i did field 4, and a hellhound...the again its IG what else could I do?]. There was some appalling luck, charly's vindicator eventually blew itself up, as did his multi--melta which took 4 other devastators with it. I also lost a missile launcher to a hit misfire and took out 5 of my own troops with frag grenades.
The final move was the most annoying. Charly teleported onto his take and hold objective (effectively drawing the game with no effort) but following our rulings based on possession through teleporting and the sheer power of these type of powers we had ruled that olling 2 or more ones on the distance spelled death for the psyker. Luckily for me this happened in this case securing my victory. However had it not occurred I would have suffered losing the chance at victory for something I had pretty much no power to stop.


an intersting game none-the-less

[tturen]

We have always held that stanionary vehicles cannot go out of control. Its bad enough when a stanionary tank has its track some how destroy a drive line and flip over even though it wasn't even moving. Of course all thats physicaly impossible but in a comic world maybe...

4 Tanks and a Hound? How many points was that game? I have four Lemans myself but ones been its original box still on the sprue. I just never used more than three at 2000 points.

What did the marines field?

[El Capitan]

Id imagine that a result of 6 on the track on a vehicle would trigger the while tank to explode as it takes the full force of the blast rather than a glance if its moving to account for the aerobatic antics.
We are currently contesting what to do with the result of 2-5 on stationary vehicles, the faces a random direction (left, no move or right) seems fair enough to represent it being rocked by an explosion, and it at least gives a small reward for the efforts to destroy it by potentially screwing some weapon arcs.

My snipers in the battle managed to kill 2 marines from around 10-12 shots, they spent half the game broken. I actually thought that was a decent enough display tbh, they didn't give away any points after all.

4 Leman Russ? Deployed in squads of 2, they only give away 5 VPs max and dish out lots of punishment and take lots of of it in return. Usually 4 leman's cock up, but as I explained, the table kind of opened up once you got into it so I had no problems getting trapped and had plenty to fire on. Its more a point of having to look at scenery deployment once your into the game itself. The game was 2,000 points by the way.

Elsewhere, it was the army that beat my Khorne, with 2 Predators, a Dreadnought and a Vindicator + a Devastator squad.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I have always really liked the guard, right going back 10 years to my first few box sets being imperial guard squads. Im a bit of a tread head, which prob goes back to collecting loads of WWII airfix before I got into warhammer.

I seriously would consider collecting a guard army in a year or so, they really appeal to me.

[Charly]

i think we got the track blown off thing right in the end, it would be too tempting to just not move certain vehicles to keep them safer, this throws at least some obvious damage into it, and with a vindicator it can effectively still take it out of the game.

the other topic which i think should still be up for debate is the change to the nullify role to 4+. normally not taking a psyker in any army i was all for the change, but the last two games ive tried using a level 3, their effectiveness has deffinatly been limited, im still not sure where i stand. psykers cost a LOT of points, ive taken 5 marines out of my regular army to slot one in. so really they should be pretty powerfull.

[El Capitan]

what scathes me is the power/effort ratio, it doesn't really take much tactical genius to cause havoc with a psyker. This is definitely an issue that will be addressed at AGM, however imagine those games with an extra lexicanium supporting, you'd be casting twice as many powers and so some would definitely get through!

[may]

HE HE HE

[Adoni-Zedek]

As far as the Teleport/Rush onto/into objective on the last turn, we always play random game length. At the end of turn 5, (and any subsequent turns) we roll a die: on a 4+, the game continues for another turn. (We play 5 turns because we play on a pingpong table, which is 5 feet across, and 9 feet wide). This way you never know exactly when the end of the game will be, and so you have to think twice before rushing troops into an exposed position at the end of the game.

I agree with Tturen on the out-of-control bit. It doesn't make sense for it to go out-of-control if it's not moving. You've already damaged it, so you're getting VPs from it. And an immobilized vehicle is not nearly as effective as a mobile one.

I also agree with Charly, that the 4+ nullify for non-psykers is too powerful. A librarian can easily end up costing more than a tooled-up Land Raider. He should be able to inflict some damage.

[Simon]

The warp flux is the way to go to reduce psyker effectiveness.

How about instead of having the amount of dice rolled being dependant on the amount of psykers, you could change it to D6 flux plus one extra card per psyker after the first.

IE 2 psykers on the table = D6 + 1 warp cards
3 psykers on the table = D6 + 2 warp cards

[James 40K Champ ***]

That would be far too restricted simon, if only relying on one D6, nearly every turn each player would only have a couple of warp cards, if they were lucky, not even enough to cast decent powers. The amount of cards isnt a prob, the more power cards you get, the more nullifies the enemy gets too..

Charly is right, Psychers cost a lot of points and as such should be justified. They can be tackled, and there are also random factors such as Deamonic attack and such which not only reduce their effectivness but endanger them too

[carcerdominus]

Why not make a rule where Psychers are dealt so many cards depending on their level. Thus limiting the power of lower levels vs. high levels say D2 for 1st, D3 2nd, D4 3rd and D6 4th. Years ago the group I used to play in limited the power level of psychic cards to the level of psycher so a level 1 psycher could not have a card that cost 3 to cast.

[El Capitan]

We'll definitely throw that idea up at AGM. In tonights game of Night Lords VS Ultramarines both a Level 3 and Level 4 psyker (form both sides) got eaten by daemonic attack

[tturen]

Guard vs Marines looks like a fair fight given the lists. I'm a little surpised those armies are so support heavy though. Thats typical for our group but not I thought in OGC.

I know in my battles Rattlings were a given and I always gave them a vet skill to let them fire again if they missed. In all my battles they never broke. Funny that one though given their small squad size and low leadership.

On track hits I agree with Adoni. You already are rewarded with a track hit and targets that are stationary should not be moved. Even troopers hit by the same weapons are not moved.

In the case of psychers I also agree that at their points cost they deserve the force cards of 1D6 each. I know as I rule I don't use them because I don't find them to be cost effective even in my marine army. Besides the more force cards out there the more often Daemonic attack pops up! Adding force cards per level could work though.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Adding force cards per level just makes the stronger levels better and limits the weaker levels, I think thats a bad thing.

I dont think there is a problem with psychers, not at the price they cost anyway, if they are such a thorn in your side go on a witch hunt, they'r good VP worth after all

[Adoni-Zedek]

Here's a possible house rule you might like. I don't use it, but we do psychic powers differently.

DEALING WARP FLUX
Dark Millenium says in quite unclear manner that you should should restrict the warp flux for one psychic phase to max. of 1D6 per psyker. Some people have understand this as 1D6 warp flux if total number of psykers of both size is 1 and 2D6 warp flux if total number of psykers of both size is 2 or more. I think that they originally ment warp flux of 1D6 x psykers rolled separately for each side. That way each side would have warp flux according to the number of the psykers. This is Ok idea, but doesn't take in to calculation the level of psyker. We tend to think that single 4th level psyker is more experienced to in draining power from warp than say, two 1st level psykers combined together. Though we admit that warp is unpredictable, so fate(luck) should play major role in that part. Another thing that we don't like about Dark Millenium's psychic system is the fact that you roll warp flux for you hole army and then use warp cards as you wish between psykers. This tends to lead to situations where psykers with not-so-good-powers feed psykers with a better set of powers with warp power. Therefore we have come up with next solution.

RULE:
Warp flux is dealed separately for each psyker of both sizes. The size of flux is nominated according to psykers level(see table below). Cards are dealed one by one equally to both sides starting with the side who's psychic phase it is. Warp cards may be used *only* by the psyker who received them(ie. they are his/hers/it's personal warp cards).

Number of warp cards dealed:

1st level psyker: D4
2nd level psyker: D6
3rd level psyker: D8
4th level psyker: D10
no psykers in the army: D3
Now more experienced(and expensive) psykers have a bigger chance of getting the flux to use all their 4 powers(which still happens rarely), and armies with no psykers will be in trouble if confronted by numerous enemy psykers(well this was also the case before, but not so severely). And, of course, this is somewhat an end to games where your opponent has bought one 4th level psyker and 3-5 1st level psykers to 'keep the flux up and have a good nullify'.

From this site: www.40k2.com/fd/house.htm

The thing I like about this system is that psykers can't "give" their warp cards to other psykers. No more bringing in extra 1st level psykers just to increase the warp flux.

[James 40K Champ ***]

D10 seems far too high for a level 4 to have all to himself.

In normal systems he generates D6 shared between both players!
I see where your comming from, but that system weakens cheap pyschers and makes the good ones better, someth

[James 40K Champ ***]

admin said:

what scathes me is the power/effort ratio, it doesn't really take much tactical genius to cause havoc with a psyker.

And neither does it take much tactical genius to cause havoc with a tooled up tank for the same points.

But neither can hold their own, they both need support from the rest of your army

[Adoni-Zedek]

If you think about it, 10 cards isn't really that many. You can expect 2-3 of them to be nullifies, one to be a "special" card, leaving 6-7 force cards, which might be enough to power all four powers, but not likely. And the average will be 5-6 warp cards, and probably about 4 force cards, so you'll probably only get off 1-2 powers. First level psykers do the best in this system, gettting up to 4 warp cards per mastery level. Level 4 psykers do the worst, topping out at 2.5 cards per level. If my group still used the normal psychic phase, we'd use this system.

This rule also limits the effectiveness of Destroy Power, Reflection, and Psychic Duel, as only the psyker they are dealt to may use them

[Simon]

Two big flaws with this system:

1. No psykers in your army vs any psykers in the enemy force. You might as well pull down your pants and let your opponent pee in your arse. Not good

2. Background doesn't fit. Why oh why would a level 4 psyker be drawing loads more power from the warp. Surely experience would have taught them to play down their presence in the warp. If you don't pay attention to anything in the existing fluff then this doesn't matter.

You're better off limiting the number of psykers than punishing no psykers at all.

[Adoni-Zedek]

We tend to think that a single 4th level psyker is more experienced in draining power from warp than say, two 1st level psykers combined together.

There's the background justification for the rule. And it makes sense to me. It does have the effect of making psykers more dangerous, which was kind of the idea of the rule.

For an army that doesn't take any psykers, use the points you save for some nasty anti-psyker surprise (character with a jumppack and a stasis grenade, Predator with twin-linked lascannons, a pair of looted basilisks, a pair of Vypers with two Buannas each, etc). There's a lot you can get for 250 - 300 points.