Starting a game off.

[James 40K Champ ***]

In standard rules there are three dice rolls to initiate the game:

• Choose a side.
  
• Who deploys first.
  
• and then who gets first turn.
  

In OGC we have modded it into two,

The loser of the first dice roll picks a side and them deployes, this kinda ofsets the advantage of picking a side, by having to deploy first.

But in either set of rules it often results in one player deploying second and then moving first, and I think this is a massive unbalance.

By deploying 2nd you already have a huge advantage of reacting to your enemys set up. If your oponent them goes first they often have to spent that turn re positioning to take the threat as it now presents itself.

If you deploy second and go first, obviously you have the huge inititive, moving to strike the enemy where it hurts.

It possibly shouldnt be Deploy 1st = goes 1st as obviously you could happily deploy all out offensive knowing you wont take fire before you get to move, and similarly it would force your opponent to deploy very defensivley knowing hes got to withstand fire.

Any thoughts on this one? In a game of only 4 turns where so much can be achived in one turn, armys are regularly crippeled when all they have done is deploy.

Perhaps some of this is down the scenery we use, if there were less lines of sight, and things like forests in deployment zones that infantry can hide inside and vehicles behind.. this kinda of scenery would be good also as it wouldnt be much of a tactical position to stay in, just make the first turn a little more survivable.

[tturen]

The codex armies are balanced with the army and command ratings in mind. These elements give the elite marines the strategic and tactical initiative they need in order the claim victory and prevent armies such as the IG from overunning an opponent. One can see the impact in particular in these two forces with the IG reserve rule being a prime example. This rules primary function is to keep the IG's tanks from being shot off the table before they ever move.

I do agree though that deploying second and then going first is a an advantage. In the case of the IG the only army they will ever deploy second against though are the tyranids who stand a fair chance of takeing the first turn themselves and the nids are insulated as well against first turn losses to some degree as the monsterous bugs can hide and the nids can absorb casualties among the small cheap units.

In our games much of the value of going first is mitigated by huge amounts of terrain across the entire board with the site lines across the center typicaly blocked. This allows large numbers of troops to hide in the DZ as part of deployment makeing them both hard to spot and difficult to target. If the DZs were open areas it could be a blood bath and imbalance the game.

Some armies certainly could deploy second then fully expect to get first turn and deploy in the open for a rush assualt. However the nids and IG are well designed to resist this with unique rules and the other armies tend to have high enough command rating that an opponent cannot be assured of getting the first turn so an open deployment itself can be a death sentence and a gamblers bid that fails often.

In regards to picking sides as a rule I let my opponent choose unless of course he has a long beard and the smell of chedder. In our games though the boards are most often pretty evenly matched so its a courtesy that has but a small price.

For my own part I know that having an opponent deploy second and move first has never swung the tide of one of my games. In fact as an IG player I got used to it and as a Wolves player my deployments always have kept the strat rateings well in mind. Meaning my own deployments tend to be pretty conservative in regards to the first turn and few armies ever deployed after mine.

Certainly the Tau are a concern in terms of deployment and first turn simply becuase they depend on the use of battlesuits that are rather large and in the case of the crisis suits not well armoured against heavy weapons fire. This is one of the reasons our Tau rules allows suits to hide but only as part of deployment. Our early Tau battles prior to this rule change tended to see the Tau suits if deployed in numbers beyond a few suits get shot to pieces by heavy weapons on the first turn. Even Hammerheads proved highly suseptable to first turn destruction.

[Simon]

The advantage can seem to be there when it's marines vs. marines and one side gets to deploy 2nd and move 1st. However, it does only 'seem' to be there. It actually has very little impact on the game. If you have to deploy 1st you should be preparing to go 2nd and I think that having the last turn of the game is always more important. You get to choose what to finish off in your opponent's force, manouvre your troops without further opposition and seize objectives at the crucial moment. For me, that is a worthy sacrifice...

[El Capitan]

As a quick interjection, I typically grab most of my VP's in the final turn, and going 2nd can be a huge advantage to this.

I think scenery is the largest part of the problem here. Also, vehicles are easy to frag in the first turn, but infantry have a lot more advantages in surviving.

[Adoni-Zedek]

Actually, in the standard rules there are only two rolls: Picking a side, and first turn. Deployment order is determined by die roll only if both armies have the same Strategy Rating. Officially, the army with the lower strat rating sets up first, no die roll necessary.

The only time I deploy as if I have the first turn is when I'm facing Tyranids. With Eldar or Marines, I can pretty much assure I have the first turn against them. But against Orks or Chaos, I'm always very cautious, as I'm not likely to get the first turn.

I would say you probably need more LOS-blocking terrain if first turn bombardments are that much of a problem. On our boards, you may have one or two limited fields of fire that reach all the way accros the board, but most of the deployment zone will have fair cover from the enemy DZ.

[El Capitan]

The main problem we seem to have is 'tank routes', or vehicle maneuverbility. Most damage comes from marines with their fast moving, seemingly always hitting vehicle of doom, and consequently, having attack bikes, and predators at your deployment zone in turn one usually spells annihilation.

any ideas of how deploy scenery better to stop vehicles being over effective? Tho tbh it really is just marine tanks that are the problem

[tturen]

Add just enough terrain to make them turn in the vehicle lanes. This will slow them down as will terrian that must be moved across at slow speed.

This isn't an issue we tend to have as vehicles that get that close tend to get smashed in CC in the following turn as they are well beyond screening infantry support and can be charged as the closest target.

My own marine tanks tend to move forward into the nuetral areas only in the second or 3rd turns as the threats to them are dealt with first. Its pretty common for us to have two vehicle lanes that are relativly open.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I think it is mostly a scenery problem, with enough we would be able to deploy a bit more defensivley. Also we should try to sort out our tank lanes as mentioned, so vehicles can get about, but it takes some manouvering and hence slows them down.

to achieve this I think we should build more small peices of scenery abour 3-6 inches high. These relativley large peices we have been using just block areas off, but then force us to leave bare patches.

Im gonna have to sell those forge world bits I go (the basilisk, hydra flak and downed hydra) cos ill get a good few quid for them and im badly skint, and they are pretty crap in our games.

Lets get loads of small bits made out of that white foam board.

[zippysguitar]

ideal things for small pieces of terrain that are quite tall are rock spires.
they are easy to make too