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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 7, 2007 23:34:17 GMT 1
Its come to head in a couple of discusions that although we do much prefere the quicker combat system of mordheim, some units suffer slightly in their combat effectivness, particularly on the charge.
In standard rules, having a higher weapon skill is much better(because this translates into strikes) than a few attacks, in our rules, it is not so important to have a high weapon skill (because even being 2 or 3 points higher than your opponent isnt to any avail!), and its much more important to have many attacks.
This is basically down to the shift from relying on weapon skill to land blows, and winning through shear weight of attacks.
Also, charging now has less of an effect than before, because you still end up with the same amount of attacks.
I do like our current combat system, but if all stats are to remain the same accross the board, we should change things slightly to better represent how things were origionally intended. A minature with WS 8 and only 3 attacks would have previously had potential to kill a lot, now the fact it has WS 8 hardly helps (only to give it +1 to hit :/ ), and 3 attacks aint so great when you miss one in three, and then have to get past wounding and armour
I propose:
+1 Attack for charging (in effect same as previosuly +1 WS).
Maybe if your weapon skill is high enough above opponent, some kind of advantage, maybe +1A though im not so sure about this one.
Thoughts and ideas please.
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Simon
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Post by Simon on Feb 8, 2007 20:45:49 GMT 1
Not sure I like the +1 Attack for charging (even though it would be yippee for my hormagaunts, hell all of my troops).
The WS idea is not so bad though. I'd say something along the lines of if your WS is 3 points higher or more than your opponent's you get +1 attack.
I know what you mean about the close combat changing things around, but it works better because a character does not kill a squad in a turn etc.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 8, 2007 22:57:29 GMT 1
But now stuff take too long to kill each other, take a space marine, in our rules, only one attack, which always misses on 1 or 2, and ussually 4's aswell,
then you have to wound and then armour, the odds get pretty crappy pretty quickly, especially compared to in the past being able to win by a couple of strikes.
Charging basically has no effect anymore, except to initiate hand to hand, to be honest being in the position to charge, should give some kind of reward. In old rules +1 WS equates to +1 strike
I just think hand to hand has become a bit obsolete, not many people bother with it, its still ok, but for all the effort you have to go to to get into it, most people are just chosing to have lots of big guns instead
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Post by tturen on Feb 9, 2007 6:47:54 GMT 1
Under the original rules WS is king and does indeed directly equate to hits for the winner. Given that the game was balanced for this effect it would make perfect sense to translate it into the altered rules.
I have never understood how players could consider characters to be so nasty. On the attack in cc they will typicaly kill only one model at a time and must still charge the closest model. They also have to close to h2h in the first place so they tend to put themselves in exposed positions. The only time they even have a chance to kill lots of models at once is when they themselves are attacked. That means the player attacking the character has decided the sacrafice he is makeing is worth while.
Anybody model who can get into h2h in 2nd Ed should be well rewarded for the effort in the first place.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 9, 2007 9:41:09 GMT 1
Anybody model who can get into h2h in 2nd Ed should be well rewarded for the effort in the first place. Exactly!! The very nature of hand to hand combat should make it more potent, if your oponent plays well, they have every oportunity to move away and blast you to peices before you close the ground. The way things currently stand, some things gain massivley.. for example berzerkers, I know they were good before, but now they have as many attacks as a good character, with good weapony, and their to hit roll is prob nearly always the same as a char too.. So give or take, in our rules, a berzerker is virtually as good as a character! I not arguing the case so characters become better (although that would be the natural progression), I just think we have skewed the rules to how the origional stats were set. You just cant expect to swap the rules entirely round where 2 variables are involved, Attacks, and Weapon Skill.. and expect the units to stay balanced how they were intended.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 9, 2007 9:55:40 GMT 1
Most standard troops have the same number of attacks as they could perform shooting actions..
I.e. A standard infantry man could either shoot once, or strike once in combat.
So there seems no real advantage to charging, in fact the exact opposite, when you shoot, you dont get hit back, but in combat you do!! Especially in our rules where both parties strike each other!
So surley, the combined fact that you have spent time and effort positioning to attack, while your enemy has been blasting you to bits, and the fact that once you close combat your opponent may well end up killing you anyway, should mean there is some slight advantage to charging.
I dont want combat overpowered, Ive just felt for at least a year that h2h isnt given the justice its deserved.
On a side note, look at the tournament, not many people bothered with h2h, I played Sisters of Battle, basically space marines with nastier guns, and better assault troops,
their disadvantage: Weak in close combat.
Given the fact that I manouvered into all your faces, you would have thought that someone try engage me in h2h, nope instead you were all to scared of being flamed, and sat back while I happily unloaded multimeltas in your face.
I solidly belive that my force was very beatable if someone moved into the mid table against me and brough the fight to me.. well thats how it should be, but the current CC system meant people had obviously throught that not a viable option
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Simon
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Post by Simon on Feb 9, 2007 10:10:36 GMT 1
My entire force, with the exception of the biovores sis close combat based. In the tournament I did try to engage you in close combat, but a combination of factors (rogue spore mine detonation killing 12 hormagaunts and the plasma grenade masterstroke) saw me fall short of it.
Charging allowing you to strike first gives you the chance to kill your opponent for no loss, something that I think is a real advantage at present.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 9, 2007 11:40:34 GMT 1
Perhaps. I do agree its not far from being very good, I just feel there isnt quite enough insentive to get into h2h, sometimes when fights break out, they end up taking 2-3 turns then the battle ends and the combat is still unresolved, it just seems a bit to slow. I think I out classed you in lots of ways in that battle simon Moving a squad forwards to engage your assult with plasma nades, also meaning they had to charge them, holding you up further for a turn, +1 my tanks flanking to your DZ to shoot an your monsters from behind and run over the initive 1 bio vores!!! Not forgetting the seraphim hoping all over the table causing hovok. And tbh, when my cannoness failed to kill your Hive tyrant when i charged, that was really bad rolling on my behalf
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Adoni-Zedek
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Feb 9, 2007 15:41:40 GMT 1
My group plays CC rules similar to yours, but charging gives you +1 Attack and +2 Initiative (combats go in order of initiative). If charging models in cover, you fight at -1 I, not +2. You get an extra attack for an extra close combat weapon. Then we use a table that emphasizes WS more:
-----1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 --1 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 --2 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 --3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 --4 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 --5 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 --6 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 --7 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 --8 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 --9 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 10 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 4
Charging berzerkers generally get 4 attacks (so do Blood Claws), while a charging Marine Captain gets 5 (3 A + 1 charging + 1 extra weapon). I'm still contemplating a +1 WS for charging, but so far we haven't found it necessary.
Anyway, that's a way to give WS a higher impact, like it had in 2nd Ed.
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Post by El Capitan on Feb 9, 2007 15:47:23 GMT 1
Perhaps we can re-adress the to hit numbers in our table. That said, ive been mass murdering everything i've charged, even basic marines with nothing special seem to do alright....remember my plague marines simon
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Post by zippysguitar on Feb 9, 2007 18:23:40 GMT 1
i think the normal h2h system is a bit long winded but considering all models have stats allocated for that system u cant just go and change it, as balances go complete out the window.
if the system is to be changed then all model stats should be altered accordingly, which would take loads of play testing and hassle
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Post by El Capitan on Feb 9, 2007 19:07:42 GMT 1
when we initially started using the system we tested loads of different combats with both systems and they did produce near identical results. The main difference now is that you can use h2h more tactically rather than being doomed of a big character lands in your lines
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Simon
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Post by Simon on Feb 9, 2007 20:12:27 GMT 1
Not forgetting the seraphim hoping all over the table causing hovok. And tbh, when my cannoness failed to kill your Hive tyrant when i charged, that was really bad rolling on my behalf Not really. The Cannoness was justly eaten. As I said I use a close combat army and there is nothing better than the charge. I get to pin a unit in place for a protracted combat and then pick which ones I can mop up with the main parts of my force. I see no issues with how this gets resolved at the moment, sure I'd love extra attacks for my Hive Tyrant, but that should be playing a supportive role rather than scoring me all of my VPs. Extra attacks would have me throwing caution to the wind and eating whole squads each turn...
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 10, 2007 16:17:18 GMT 1
We should look at the WS table, because it hardly makes a difference, except ocassionally to get 3s to hit, or 5s to hit instead of 4s.. some troops pay a lot of points for high weapon skill, which hardly helps them in our combat.
Saying on average that most troops hit on 4s in combat, and have one or two attacks, means your lucky to even land one hit, then you have to wound and get past armour.
In standard rules, it is designed to be resolved one way or another much quicker
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Post by zippysguitar on Feb 11, 2007 20:11:57 GMT 1
agreed there arent enuf turns in 2nd ed to allow for combat to last a few turns each
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Feb 12, 2007 14:47:28 GMT 1
there are 3 dice rolls to get past to kill someone in either combat, or shooting.. currently your odds are better shooting someone! As our rules favor BS over WS, and you can get hit back in hand to hand!!
H2H should be better than shooting once you actually get into it
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Post by El Capitan on Feb 12, 2007 20:20:31 GMT 1
a lot of the cc mess ups though have been on account of marine on marine fighting which by nature is ineffective. Assault troops with a bolt pistol and chainsword are basically on equal terms with marines anyway. they just have an extra attack. Throw them against eldar or orks or whatever and your going to do a lot more damage. My bezerkers usually do more damage because i take stronger weapons for them, chainswords are not an ideal choice against marines, they are just low cost hitters that offer parry protection.
in the examples of characters rolling all 1's and 2's to hit and thus missing totally, in an old rules combat, they'd probably lose and be hit anyway, for example on those rolls, a marine would need only a 4+ to win the combat, especially with fumbles factored in.
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Simon
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Post by Simon on Feb 13, 2007 12:00:43 GMT 1
I'd say the opposite of Brown. The CCsystem actually has the advantage of keeping a unit safer from shooting. A long, drawn out combat does occasionally come about, but as Mike says, it is usually only marine vs marine with nothing to cause any damage in there anyway. Troops with high WS do not suffer at all, my genestealers are paying the points for their general CC meatiness, rather than the high WS and if they get into combat, they usually make their points back in a turn. They are aided in this by my hormagaunts, which regularly fail to recover their points because they are not meant to. They are the equivalent of a marine with no armour and an extra attack, but because the combat takes a couple of turns to resolve anyway, they fulfill my desired role perfectly. Basically, a drawn out combat between ineffective troops would be happening anyway in either rules sets, and I use this to my advantage. Once the gaunts hit the lines, my elite combat specialists come in against the pricey squads to earn me the most VPs.
With marines that equates to charge with scouts and then get the assault squad with powerswords in.
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Post by Charly on Feb 13, 2007 17:45:13 GMT 1
if you want my vote i think we have it fine as it is.
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Post by LukeG on Feb 15, 2007 17:20:06 GMT 1
How about +1 to hit on the charge, instead of +1WS?
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