Recon pack.

[James 40K Champ ***]

hmmm.. mike said I cant take the recon pack for space marine attack bikes because it adds +1 to the strat rating.

But if the kroot are allowed an Item that grants them a reroll for 1st turn.. why shouldnt space marines be allowed an item that gives +1 strat rating.

All the fluff fits perfectly aswell, espesh for an entirley mounted SM army..

[tturen]

The recon pack makes perfect sense for marines and even more sense for a fast striking White Scars force. The upgrade is 20 points. Thats roughly what the optionional chapter master rules cost the effect at. Some special characters also have a strat of 6. Kyrl Grimblood of the space wolves has a +1 strat for about 21 points. A number of special characters also have it (Abbadon +1=strat 5 comes to mind...). Its not an unusual ability.

Command comm links are even better and cost 30 points. As a rule marines are designed to be a 'go first army' anyway its one of the reasons they are so expensive in the first place. Now take a command comm and a recon pack in a vehicle force and you have a huge game balance issue.

[James 40K Champ ***]

So you think its too good to give the SM +1 strat rating?

[El Capitan]

the strategy ratings are specifically balanced and manipulating them in an y way should be left to special scenarios or at player descretion

[James 40K Champ ***]

Hmph

Ill have to settle for strat rating 5 then Its ok, I know a good way to combat going 2nd with SMs anyway

[tturen]

Strat. rateings are balanced. They are also clearly manipulated in many of the codexes. This is a design feature of the game system and GW expressly felt that this was fine and legal. In most cases command boosts have a nominal effect offset by chance and the cost of the upgraded ability or character.

In the case of the marines they are already a go first army by design so a +1 in most cases doesn't have a large balance impact. I have often taken Grimblood to help assure that the my Wolves go first because when they do not they are at a distinct disaddvantage. Most other armies by design are fine when they go second. I don't see that a +1 has much of an impact for marines. It also makes sense in game terms for a highly mobile marine force to get a +1 to strat.

Now a comm link/recon pack can be combined to assure first turn. This can be a problem. In fact if a marine army is well designed and played with this combination in mind then it can be all but invincable.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Now I think about it its not a great idea to make it too certain, because if your pretty sure you will have 1st turn, you can deploy in a way that makes you a lot more deadly, however if there is a chance u go 2nd, that could be a dangerous deployment, i.e. key units in vulnerable positions.

The threat of going 2nd, forces you to be a little conservative in deployment making use of cover.

[James 40K Champ ***]

tturen said:

Strat. rateings are balanced. They are also clearly manipulated in many of the codexes. This is a design feature of the game system and GW expressly felt that this was fine and legal. In most cases command boosts have a nominal effect offset by chance and the cost of the upgraded ability or character.

Though I do agree with tturen's points, and I also think its harsh to deny the use of something thats part of the game.

[tturen]

I agree that it is to harsh to deny something that is integrated into the game. I for one have never had an issue with a mere +1 strat bonus. GW has repeated this bonus in multiple armies and wargear.

[El Capitan]

on the isue of a recon pack, as a chaos player i find buying an attack bike with multi-melta, recon pack and targetor for 185 a bargain if only for the +1 strategy

[James 40K Champ ***]

Isnt a recon pack Imperial only thou?

[El Capitan]

chaos can take imperial and space marine only vehicle cards

+ wasnt 'virus outbreak' integrated into the game? *shudders*

[tturen]

"on the isue of a recon pack, as a chaos player i find buying an attack bike with multi-melta, recon pack and targetor for 185 a bargain if only for the +1 strategy"

Ouch. Thats certainly no bargain and its worse for chaos with a 25% max support.

"+ wasnt 'virus outbreak' integrated into the game? *shudders*"

Past tense. It didnt last long. Universally despised. Not at all like strat bonuses either that are part of many codexes themselves and the chapter master design rules.

[El Capitan]

Look at it in this way, if there is an opportunity for a strategy bonus, especially for a low points cost then it is madness not to take it. In essense a space marine army should have strategy rating 6 in the first place in this case. The only way i can see the recon pack not unbalancing things is if it gave +1 strategy rating to an army that contained to foot troops, in essence an all bike army. This would at least justify it as well, as opposed to having marines as sole users of reconnaissance methods. The recon pack seems more like an intersting idea with a badly applied rule to me.

+ whats the comm link that adds +1 strategy rating? I dont believe i've come across it..

[tturen]

Marines like Orks are already a 'go first army' by design. Boosting their strat has less of an impact than it does on other armies. This may be why the recon pack was limited to marines in the first place.

Other armies can boost their strat as well without this device but must take unique characters to do so.

The only real issue with marines occures when a player lines up knowing full well they will get first turn and deploys without any other regard. This causes a huge imbalace. Just adding +1 to the strat doesnt cause this issue. Armies like the the Nids and IG are already 'go last'. Chaos armies can conceal themselves and have limited armour as well as access to command boosts not to metion a command rateing of 5. The Eldar/Tau rateing of 4 is only 2 less than a boosted marine force so a marine commander would not be assured of going first. The Tau also have a command boost option that costs the same in T codex. Eldar I'm not sure but atleast one character is likely a booster.

Command Comm Link: Cost 30 points. Allows a marine army to roll 2D6 to determine who starts first but it forces the equiped character to ride in a vehicle. Combine this with any other command booster in a marine army and you major issues...

All in all a +1 boost to marines has a marginal impact and most often I'm not willing to pay for it. A vehicle heavy force though causes a greater concern in terms of differences in command rateings but that shoudn't be an issue under the OGC rules in most cases.

I've played with and against command boosted armies and although it can have an impact much of the time its wasted points. In any case it hasn't caused any significant balance issue so I see no issues with it so long as the rateing are not boosted more than a +1.

[El Capitan]

where did this command comm-link appear? Ive never come across it before.

[tturen]

I can't say where it first appeared. Its listed as official wargear on both wargear lists I have from two internet lists. Both claim it is from either WD, codex, or Dark Mil. I do know our oldest Wolves player used it in the one of the first games I ever played and I think he has a card for it. His use certainly predates both lists and he's a stickler for 'officia' stuff like that. I'll check with him if nobody else knows exactly where it comes from as I do not have it, have never used it, and it predates my intro into 2nd Ed.

[El Capitan]

yeah, definitealy not in dark millenium, checked all codexs bar the ultramarines ones as well

[James 40K Champ ***]

rolling 2 dice seems a bit too good, but I agree that +1 doesnt make that much of a difference, and true, most of the time it will represent 20 points wasted.

[Adoni-Zedek]

The only boost Eldar have is the Autarch under proposed OGC rules. Eldrad Ulthran allows you to draw an extra stratedy card. None of their other wargear or characters gives a strat rating above 4. (Not even the Avatar, God of War)

I've never seen the Command Comm-Link either. Not in the battlebible, or the wargear cards I have (admittedly, neither of the above sources can be considered complete).