Infiltration rules

[tturen]

Wanted to find out how you all handle infiltration. It's an issue that comes up often.

So do you allow infiltrating troops to deploy within initiative range?

We don't as clearly any such troops would already be spotted and therefore not the least bit concealed.

Do you allow infiltrating troops to deploy within scanner range?

As a house rule (Who's house matters for us!) we don't allow this. Reason being that said units could never have infiltrated to inside the scanners range without first being detected and therefore reacted to. The trouble is that simply bringing along a scanner and a bionic eye can pretty much keep infiltrators to near their own lines.

[El Capitan]

yeah we dont allow up to initiative range, and for scanners the infiltrating unit can go within but counts as detected. their exact location hasnt been picked due to concealment int he surroundings but thewy know their there somewhere

[tturen]

"counts as detected. their exact location hasnt been picked due to concealment int he surroundings but thewy know their there somewhere"

Its the part about allowing a clearly known threat to advance to within spitting distance that bothers me. For all intensive purposes the scanner equiped army is ignoring the scanner entirely. I just don't find that logical or at all realistic.

What do you think about allowing infiltrators to advance only to within 12" of a scanner?

[El Capitan]

possibly, or have the scanner double the initiaive range of the bearer when placing infiltrators

[James 40K Champ ***]

Think of it like this, as 2 armys deploy, they are both (ussually lol) fully aware of each others presence.. thats why they are there.

Before the battle, both sides are taking tactical positions and are both vulnerable and unorganside. Although one side may be monitoring the presence of infiltrators near by, there is not a lot they can do about it, as making an attacking move now would be a fatal error compromising their own deployment.
Rather they get set up 1st then move in for the kill (just as in a game one of the ealry moves is likely to be removing any infiltrated threats.)

Randomly I just thought of a good example of this in another game: CHESS

In chess, you can see your opponent moving infiltrators into place.. maybe a sneaky knight, or a couple of pawns.. but to smash these peices early on, with say your queen, is all most always a disaster, your queen will be unprotected, you will not dominate the centre table and you will have what is known as a 'weak opening'.
In retrospect you opponent has dominated the board, has a 'strong opening' with 'strong pawns' (backing each other up), and has likely exchanged his 'infiltrators' for a high powered peice or 2 of yours. Feeling boned? hes fucked you with his infiltrators.. why? because you were inpatient.

Moral: Chess is a great example of why you need to deploy well, in chess the 1st 5 turns or so (the open game) are basically the same as your deployment phase in 40K.. if you hurry this your fucked.

Thats why you cant attack in your deployment.. because your setting up
(unless your sneaky IG and have bombardment! lol)

[tturen]

"Although one side may be monitoring the presence of infiltrators near by, there is not a lot they can do about it, as making an attacking move now would be a fatal error compromising their own deployment. "

They certainly can and would alter their deployment to take into consideration a detected threat. Presently the rules don't allow for this reaction so infiltrators can take full advantage of the situation even when they are spotted. A scanner though provides a clear advantage even if the advantage is only utilized defensively. Denying the infiltrators territory is I think the least invasive means to replicate the advantage a scanner clearly provides.

I do agree though that deployment itself is a key to victory both in 40k and chess but in terms of infiltration I don't see a clear parallel given that both games start with units in the deployment zone but only 40k allows units to deploy outside of it. Now if pawns could 'deploy' a space away well then, I'd want a damn scanner to help prevent it!

[James 40K Champ ***]

hehe, yeah I can see where your comming from.

Scouts can be a pain when they pop out of nowhere. All you can really do is anticipate any scouts in your deployment, there will usually only be a handful of decent positions for them anyway, it shouldnt be too hard to build that into your deployment.

Its a little off topic, but:
Played against simon's Nids today with my Sisters of Battle. He has 2 lictors and there was a forest on the edge of my left flank, guess where the lictors were going.. lol
I placed a missionary (because he meant nothing to me) right up into that corner to try push them back a little. They charged him, I multi meltered one of them while in combat (and the missionary survived haha), the missionary then went on to plasma gun the remaining lictor to death , not bad for a 30 point model lol. He did get eaten by a Hive tyrant at the end thou

[tturen]

Scouts? Ah one of favorite units in all of 40k, Space Wolf scouts. They don't kill much and they die easy but I think they are still the most valuable unit in the Wolves force. Just being able to infiltrate with blind grenades is priceless though.

The problem I have right now though is how we play scanners. Right now they prevent me from placeing my infiltrators is prime positions. On the other hand I still think scanners should grant a bonus in terms of dealing with infiltration in the deployment phase.

By gthe way that was one darn lucky missionary at least up until the end...

[James 40K Champ ***]

yeah, the missionary was definatly my man of the match.. simons was his biovore things.

I think mikes sugestion is appropriate, have it double initive range, so a decent character with something like inititive 5, would stop anything within 10" a fairly good counter?

I think that would work nice aswell, because the holder is then at risk more due to being close to the front lines.. just as he would be if her were trying to seek the scouts out.

[LukeG]

Importantly, it makes Scanners worth a damn! I think the best options are double I or 12", as Double I pretty much IS 12" I'd say douible the initiative. It gives the armies more character then as Orks would not bother with such a tactic, even if the controller does, so it limits their abiltity to do this as they have a low I while the Eldar would have superior Initiative translating into superior technology.

I have a selfish motive hear, if this is an approved rule come tournament time I can use a Techmarine as a 10" Lictor Ward.

[Adoni-Zedek]

How would a scanner affect a model that already detects hidden models at double their initiative? Triple? Quadruple?

Ork players have an excellent 'scanner' option with the sniffer squig. No Infiltrators within 24", or polymophined assassins within 18". Of course, at 20 points, you're paying through the nose for it.

I would personally suggest the 12" Anti-Infiltrator range for scanners, rather than double initiative.

As James said, there's often not a lot of really good spots anyway (at least on our tables...not that we don't have a lot of terrain, just that I frequently consider deploying my scouts just barely outside my own deployment zone), and if you know they are coming, you can plan for them.

[James 40K Champ ***]

I agree with lukes points and think that double range should be used.


'How would a scanner affect a model that already detects hidden models at double their initiative? Triple? Quadruple? '

I would say it would affect it at all. whatever reason lets that character detect at that range, isnt going to be improved by having a scanner.
i.e. the scanner is telling him theres someone near by, but he already knows that from his superiour eye sight (or whatever).. and just dismissed the scanner.

[LukeG]

There's a decent bail in the background for a whirlwind about how accurate scanning technology can be when models are hidden. Using the Initiative value with the scanner helps make it useful but works with the rules better but for the sake of arguement infltraters are experts at concealment, and the I factor is how close they can get before they go from being detected to having solid confirmation and being shot down.

[tturen]

I think well constructed cases are made for both a 12" and x2 Initiative based scanner anti-infiltration zones. I tend to think a basic 12" rule is better myself as all races pay the same points for the same piece of wargear. An initiative based zone though sits well with some of the fluff. Either method certainly would do the job. I'll run both by the members of our group and let them decide how to proceed on the matter. Excellent thoughts though people.