Eldar

[LukeG]

That's a bi-product of the rules. NO Eldar are supposed to be kamikaze because the Eldar are a dying race. They often have to go out of their way to drop grenades, and it leaves them shafted. But if they were using their manouvrability to make maximum use of cover and rapidly redeploy a useful basic weapon they'll get less of a kicking AND the grenade drop would then become a tactic to hitting any isolated units
e.g. A squad strays too far to the flank, the Hawks pass over almost entirely out of the battle to drop, fire, and remove.
They should be doing things like this, and executing survivors in hiding to maximise victory points, but I don't remember the last time I saw them as anything but a one-shot opening barrage. :/

[TTuren]

Last time I checked the -1 to hit applied to the krack grenade regardless of the dropper used by the hawks.

I do agree though that Smurfs are one of the toughest armies to win with and that the basic troops are to expensive.

The Eldar are already one of the most effective armies in 2nd ed. Anything that makes them more effective should cost them more in terms of points and I can see it now a fleet of vypers armed with cannons and pulse lasers. Ouch.

Why not just give the vet. unit models vet. sargent stats and cost but without the wargear slot?

[Simon]

I thought that the veteran sergeant stats without a wargear slot was what the stats for a veteran were already...

[El Capitan]

For Ultramairnes Tyranid Hunters i think the squad shouyld jsut be Veterans with putriy seals for +50 points. After much pondering I fell upon that item in the Sisters Book and it fits well with being good V Tyranids whislt not having any particualr anti Tyranid rules.

Purity Seals - Immune to Fear and Terror (obvious really) and 4+ save V psychic attacks that is not a nullify (again good V tyrants and zoanthropes). And Luke made a good comment as theyd be handpicked veterans for various units to form this special type.

That seem cool wit people? That'd make the unit cost 380 points in the end.

As for the Edlar these upgrade are generally in line with trying to keep up with new GW advancements, though it can cause unbalances as you have been pointing out. + its not like GW can even balance there games is it?

I think the weapons shoud be replaced but with a points upping. The lasgun is still the tricky one though, but if Swooping Hawks now come with Shuriken Catapults anyway then we can put this into their options. Problem solved I guess, but id still like to lasgun to have something to diffentiate it from the Imperial one, but what?

[LukeG]

+1 to hit
EVERYTHING with a tune up gets +1 to hit.
Or extend the range by +50%

[El Capitan]

maybe, lasgun still redundant but would show off better tech.

[Charly]

vets sound ok yeah, not sure if id take them tho, even against nids. lots of points.

[tturen]

"but if Swooping Hawks now come with Shuriken Catapults anyway then we can put this into their options. Problem solved I guess,"


The new models may come with Shurikens but in terms of balance in 2nd Ed the effects are manifold if they are just a simple codex add. In terms of tactics and lethality the units become tremendously more useful and deadly. In fact the addition completely alters the way the units would be played.

[El Capitan]

all i can say is test it out. But if the new models are comin with new weapons we dont really have a choice.

[tturen]

The choice is simply the cost of the upgrade itself. I agree play testing will test its value!

[Adoni-Zedek]

Actually bot, the -1 BS for krak grenades also applies when they are dropped. The rules for the hawk grenade packs don't specify anywhere that this is negated. So you can count on half your krak grenades hitting each turn.

I confess I like the idea of susfire lasguns. Charge 3 points for them (only a single point bump up in cost) if you must, but the fact that swooping hawks come in small groups (3-7) means they lack the numbers (and special weapons) that IG squads have, and they pack a much weaker punch. This upgrade would help them a lot, but not overwhelmingly so. I'm for it.
(and I promise the fact that I'm putting together an Eldar force has nothing to do with this opinion. I solemnly swear!! )

And while the new Guardians all have catapults, the new Hawks still have lasguns (lasblasters by 4th Ed rules, I think).

[tturen]

Thank the heavens that Hawks still don't have cats!

[Adoni-Zedek]

Oddly enough, I agree with you, Tturen. While Swooping Hawks would rock with tuelean (shuriken catapults), they'd probably rock a bit too hard. Seven of them could wipe out huge quantities of infantry before you could even react. (Okay, overwatch let's you react. Still...)

I like them as a fast, light squad, capable of knocking off isolated squads, but unable to face moderate amounts of infantry. They still shouldn't be suicide units, however. So that's why I'm in favor of the sus-fire lasguns. Of course, I still haven't actually used them, so we'll see how I feel about them then.

[Simon]

Back to the subject of the OGC Codex Eldar update, I'd like to know why we made the Eldar a hell of a lot harder with the weapon upgrades?

There is an explanation of Eldar technology on page 5 or 6 of their Codex and I actually think that Max power Heavy Plasmas each turn would unbalance the game, even at an increase in points...

[El Capitan]

The Eldar ammendments have been reverted to name amendments rather than rules ones (same vein as the Orks).

However I will stand by the Pulse laser one as this would have happened anyway if 2nd ed lived on. They reboxed the Dreadnought with a pulse laser and labelled it so and it appeared on the Falcon, with no lascannon option. The Support Platfrom also got renamed Pulse Laser. The ruels for a pulse laser are not exactly overpowering either, conisdering that a lascannon was far outmathced by ther Imperiums ability to strap two lascannons together in all the same places anyway. Even Orks can get twin lascannons equivalents with their dreadnoguths extra arms.
The Pulse Laser is a normal lascannon 33% of the time, a twin 33% of the time, and there is a 16% chance that either james completely or obtains an additional shot.

Points however are ammended to 50 points for the Pulse Laser (thats +15 to all lascoannon CODEX entries)

[Adoni-Zedek]

Just a note on your wave serpent. You have it capable of carrying 12 models, not including wraithguard. I thought serpents were supposed to be able to carry wraithguard (at a ratio of 1 per two eldar), although falcons couldn't.

Any thoughts of recreating the Warp Wave feature the old, Armorcast Wave Serpent had? I personnally like that concept better than the Falcon-with-extended-crew-compartment.

[bot]

"Actually bot, the -1 BS for krak grenades also applies when they are dropped. The rules for the hawk grenade packs don't specify anywhere that this is negated. So you can count on half your krak grenades hitting each turn."
i think that the rules regard throwing, not dropping kraks. we can apply the same rule to hawks but it will weaken them. and what abut krak grenages shot off the grenade launchers? do gl still gain additional -1 to hit? i don't think so it is neccessary. leave swooping hawks as they are, or change their point cost.
hawks with shurikens catapults sound deadly... really deadly.
"Any thoughts of recreating the Warp Wave feature the old, Armorcast Wave Serpent had? I personnally like that concept better than the Falcon-with-extended-crew-compartment."
yeah. what about this special feature?

and there were two different pulse lasers in gw rules. one mounted on falcon and the other on this armorcast super heavy tank (usually depicted as having blue colours). forgot his name.

[Adoni-Zedek]

Tempest grav tank. I've got the datafax at home (got a copy of it off a guy who won an ebay auction that included the datafax). The tempest pulse laser had multiple shots at S7 or so, or one shot at S10. Actually, a pretty pathetic weapon considering the size of the barrels (1/4" dia. by 3" long). I figured it'd be more along the lines of a pulse prism cannon, rather than a glorified scatter laser. The falcon pulse laser is far more potent.

The wargear book lists krak grenades as -1 to hit, without specifying thrown/dropped/fired. I think it's a result of needing a direct hit to inflict damage, rather than just getting close, as with most other grenades.
edit: Actually, Bots is right. I checked my Wargear book, and it specifically states that Krak grenades are hard to throw, thus incurring the -1 to hit when thrown. Well, I guess my swooping hawks just got a tad more accurate with grenade drops.

[Yarlen Fireblade]

However I will stand by the Pulse laser one as this would have happened anyway if 2nd ed lived on. They reboxed the Dreadnought with a pulse laser and labelled it so and it appeared on the Falcon, with no lascannon option. The Support Platfrom also got renamed Pulse Laser. The ruels for a pulse laser are not exactly overpowering either, conisdering that a lascannon was far outmathced by ther Imperiums ability to strap two lascannons together in all the same places anyway.

Where'd you pull that from?
You're probably thinking of 'Bright Lances' not 'Pulse Lasers'
Bright Lances are the Eldars shorter ranged but superior version of the Imperial Lascannon in the current rules set.
Therefore any mention of Bright Lance should be interpreted as Lascannon for purposes of 2nd edition rule translation.

Just a note on your wave serpent. You have it capable of carrying 12 models, not including wraithguard. I thought serpents were supposed to be able to carry wraithguard (at a ratio of 1 per two eldar), although falcons couldn't.

Any thoughts of recreating the Warp Wave feature the old, Armorcast Wave Serpent had? I personnally like that concept better than the Falcon-with-extended-crew-compartment.

That's correct Wave serpents can carry wraithguard but they count as 2 passengers, so a maximum of 6 wraithguard may be carried.

The Wave Serpent isn't just a Falcon with extended crew compartment, it mounts a smaller turret with any twin linked heavy weapon system of your choice.
Scatter lasers, Lascannons, Heavy plasmas, Missile launchers or Shuriken cannons and of course it receives extra protection against ranged attacks from its energy shield.

The wargear book lists krak grenades as -1 to hit, without specifying thrown/dropped/fired. I think it's a result of needing a direct hit to inflict damage, rather than just getting close, as with most other grenades.
edit: Actually, Bots is right. I checked my Wargear book, and it specifically states that Krak grenades are hard to throw, thus incurring the -1 to hit when thrown. Well, I guess my swooping hawks just got a tad more accurate with grenade drops.

Actually Adoni-Zedek you were right the first time, Krak grenades that are dropped by swooping hawks while flying do indeed suffer from the -1 to hit modifier.
And here's the proof.
2nd edition Eldar codex page 59 "Swooping hawk grenade pack"

2nd paragraph 2nd line.
"Roll to hit and if neccessary scatter as for a thrown grenade."
As we all know, when you throw a krak grenade you're incurred a -1 to hit modifier.
Case closed.

In my opinion this represents a few things, firstly krak grenades are not very aerodynamic they are primarily designed to be stuck or placed on the flat surface of a stationary building or relatively slow moving vehicle so Krak grenades are most likely cylindrical OR plate shaped.

This would make them very difficult to throw accurately, the grenades themselves are most likely shape charged in design so you'd have to get a direct hit on an individual for any practical effect.
Also swooping hawks can move very rapidly, dropping unstable awkward grenades while travelling at great speed would be just as difficult.

[tturen]

Good to see your still alive Yarlen. A fine contribution here.