Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Jul 9, 2008 19:15:09 GMT 1
What's the best way to fight Necrons? On the one hand, they're relatively weak in hand-to-hand combat. On the other hand, they're T5, and you only hit with your own strength. Plus, when they get within a few inches of you, you suddenly can't hit the broad side of a barn. But their ranged weapons are rather nasty, even if they are relatively short ranged. (nothing over 40")
So should you out shoot them? Or out fight them? (Or, yes, run them all over with a horde of cheap rhinos. At least until the scarabs land on them, and they explode.)
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Simon
Unydun
Fantasy & Magic Champion 2005. Leeds co-ordinator
Spongeman
Posts: 693
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Post by Simon on Jul 9, 2008 19:29:08 GMT 1
Even the ram raid approach does not work, as they can disrupt the vehicle's engines too and sow it down. Close combat is a good way with things like force weapons (we ruled that the bonus strength based on the mastery level would be unaffected) or Nids (high natural strength).
With armies like marines, concentrating the firepower on particular units is the best way to tackle some of the problems and keep mobile to stop them overwhelming your position. Think of all the money you can save on close combat weapons and spend it on more marines. The more men, the better when it comes to Necrons.
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Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Jul 9, 2008 19:44:44 GMT 1
So, from a Chaos perspective, a Daemon Weapon, and probably an Axe of Khorne would retain their strength bonuses as well, being daemonic (warp-based) in origin? The Wailing Doom would also keep its strength bonus.
So lots of Tarantulas, lots of bolters, and a few psychic powers. And maybe a rhino or two. (A rhino only has to kill one necron to make its points back! And it could probably kill one or two before succumbing to the scarabs and disruption fields). Sounds like a good plan.
Thanks!
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Post by tturen on Jul 10, 2008 6:23:44 GMT 1
Adoni, what set of Necron rules are you using?
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Post by El Capitan on Jul 10, 2008 7:50:56 GMT 1
I wouldn't recommend a stand and fire approach as all it'll take is a few well moved scarabs and destroyers and its game over. You need at least part of your army to engage the necrons somewhere on the table, similar to nids where if you sit and wait in the deployment zone it makes for a no-brainer snack. If you can pin the warriors back with assaulting units (though make sure their not supported by Wraiths and Flayed Ones) then the Necrons will struggle to get their best units to bear on you and will end up causing little damage.
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Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Jul 10, 2008 13:32:28 GMT 1
The rules I'm using are very similar to the OGC's codex. So I figured I'd ask here. Which rules does your group use, Tturen?
So the purpose of the assaulting marines is not to inflict significant damage, but rather to tie them up in close combat for several turns to prevent them from being able to shoot at me.
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Post by El Capitan on Jul 11, 2008 15:04:19 GMT 1
Essentially yes, you have to stop the Necrons from having it their way as they require the disrupt to make up for their lack of numbers so by halting disrupt to your main firepower units you can ensure the maximum amount of damage is going at the crons all battle.
That said don't rely on heavy weapons, you'll need to be mobile as any Necron player worth their salt should be bale to rack up -4 or 5 to hit by turn 2 with a combo of Destroyers and Scarabs.
Also note that we class Scarabs as characters so under our restrictions you wont see more than 3 scarabs in a 2k point necron army but they wont be worth any VPs either. This is the product of literally dozens upon dozens of play test games down the years that found the scarabs both disruptive to the VP system by being worth 1 each and over pwoered in large numbers.
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Post by tturen on Jul 13, 2008 21:35:07 GMT 1
We use the OGC codex but I've never taken a good look at it and our Necron player hasn't had much luck but that could be a player issue and not a codex issue.
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Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Jul 16, 2008 19:07:41 GMT 1
Are thrown weapons also subject to the -1 to hit per necron within 6”? (Torgal’s Plasma blade, krak grenades, web of skulls, etc).
And how are Necrons affected by Haywire grenades (And Tau EMP grenades and Ion cannons)?
edit: To summarize the following discussion, any ranged weapon that you roll to hit with is subject to the -1 to hit per necron within 6"
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Jul 17, 2008 9:48:54 GMT 1
A thrown blade I would say has no mod, but grenades will be affected as normal, this can be accounted for the mechanism being disrupted. It wouldn't make sense for a short range shooting weapon to work against them.. especially a krak nade. Remember even tyranid weaponry is disrupted. If a web of skulls has any kind of tech reliance i'd say thats affected too.
Haywire nade is just a strength 3 hit with no save mod. Necrons are going to have all sorts of defences against various electronic impulses, there is a lot of that about, so a St. 3 hit seems fair to me.
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Post by tturen on Jul 18, 2008 16:01:14 GMT 1
Haywire grenades are wargear designed to disable vehichles and robots. A single strength 3 hit makes sense for living critters but for Necrons the impact should be considerable such as disabling or causing a wound on a 3+. It's not like one is going to see lots of haywire grenades anyway.
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Post by El Capitan on Jul 18, 2008 18:19:08 GMT 1
We did rule on grenades, is it in the codex? I think they would suffer disrupt as they wouldn't work which is what the disrupt represents. Although what level of tech do we place on frag & krak grenades? Certainly plasma, melta, haywire etc would all suffer disruption but would we say frag are more crude?
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Post by tturen on Jul 19, 2008 4:22:22 GMT 1
What exactly is the orgin of the disruption rule?
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Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Jul 19, 2008 16:59:18 GMT 1
#217) Necron Raiders: rules & background for the newest race in 40K (from members.visi.net/~templar/WD/WH40K.html). So if you have that issue, you can look up the original wording and fluff. I was thinking the only way harlequins could have a chance against the necrons is to get in close and pepper them with krak grenades. With a BS of 5, the normal -1 to hit won't be too serious, and S6 will wound nicely, and have a good chance of penetrating necron armor. Harlequins are only S3, which means they wound in close combat on a 6 against T5 or T6 necrons. I guess they could take lots of plasma pistols, and again the -1 to hit at long range won't be crippling. Your necrons closed to within 6 inches? I'll just use my 6-inch move to back away and blast you! But plasma pistols are only -2 to the armor save, while krak grenades are -4. Still, with a 6" move, you could probably get out of range of the disruption efffect and still hit with your krak grenades. But yeah, how low-tech do you need to go? Would an autogun be subject to the -1 to hit? A flint lock? A blunderbuss?
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Post by El Capitan on Jul 19, 2008 17:18:05 GMT 1
I think the disruption is regarded as a general rule for convenience, although krak grenades have been contentious in the past.
I will see if i can get that copy of WD from storage and scan the page for you tturen
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Post by tturen on Jul 21, 2008 7:17:56 GMT 1
I have the WD but in regards to all ranged attacks the only effect is to the to hit role and ranged attacks including those with grenades do not suffer any other impacts. H2H weapons however do suffer other effects such as being rendered effectivly non-functional.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Jul 21, 2008 23:53:47 GMT 1
The rule is meant to effect basically all weaponry, the necrons are supposed to be deadly once they are within range. Certain things have been allowed like deamon weapons etc.. but that was never intended as such in the origional rules, they were litterally meant to be virtually unbeatable once they'r upon you.. its fair enough allowing those few exceptions because it makes sence.
But blood hell, you cant allow things like krak nades to be unaffected, they are ridiculously good against necrons with their high toughness and low numbers. To say krak nades work perfectly would deal necrons a dreadful blow. Its a bloody close range weapon, the very thing necrons and designed to tackle. Give an army krak nades and say they work its game over for necron players.
Beating necrons low numbers and relatively slow movement, should be about out manouvering them, and dealing critticle damage to certain parts of the force, while presenting only large or cheap units as targets.
Given that the origional white dwarf very clearly stated that everything would be effected right down to tyranid weaponry, it would be crazy to say, 'oh yeah krak nades now work'.
As mike was saying, its more about the game mechanic than the fluff, and if you need fluff just say nades are digitally fused or something.
Given that necrons move 4", i'm sure you can move your troops to give you one turn of un-interupted nade throwing, that alone can deal heavy damage to such small numbers..
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Post by tturen on Jul 22, 2008 7:05:05 GMT 1
I've read the WD listed and I clearly stated the rules listed there. As written krack grenades have always worked. All ranged attacks have always worked. The only thing effected is the to hit roll.
I have no issues with balance adjustments but I do like to know what drives the rules and the changes to them. So if krack grenades need to be adjusted for the purpose of game balance then thats perfectly fine but we need to be clear about the issue.
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Post by El Capitan on Jul 22, 2008 9:55:07 GMT 1
IS the issue here whether or not Krak grenades force the disrupt rule or whether or not grenades would work at all? I think we play the former.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Jul 22, 2008 11:39:50 GMT 1
Oh sorry for any confusion, of course any ranged weapons will always work- when I said 'not work' I did just intend to mean they will be affected by disruption.
One of necrons major strengths is getting close and becoming very hard to kill, allowing krak nades to be thrown with no disruption modifiers just throws the necrons out the window.
You should be comming up with more imaginative ways to beat them than just having some over powered weapon to arm your whole army with.
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