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Post by El Capitan on Apr 3, 2008 14:38:19 GMT 1
With the Tau being our newist list and of course them being probably the hardest conversion we have done, there are inevitably going to be some changes over the next six months, however I predict them to be very subtle, having strong confidence in our CODEX. As such, with a target aim of being before the end of July we hope to iron out any issues with the list and modify the current version in 1.2. Of course any help will be must appreciated so please leave your comments and results of any tests you've done. We'll keep posting our rules. The CODEX (1.1) is downloadable at; liverpoolamnesty.org.uk/ogc/OGC%20Website%20files/OGC%20CODEX%20Tau%201.0.pdfBelow are the following ammendments and errata so be added and have immediate effect;Drones For the purposes of targetting squads with drones, treat the drone as if it were hovering no higher than the height of a Fire Warrior or Battlesuit, depending on attachment. It has been noted that the high stand used for the Drones is not totally compatible with the 2nd edition rules particular when it comes to cover, and also for the sake of fluff, the drones are meant to have a self-preservation ai so you'd imagine they wouldn't be hovering quite so openly anyhow!Add to the drone rules - when part of a squad they do not count towards the number of models for the purposes of forcing a break test, however if destroyed they will count as a casualtyBattlesuitsBattlesuit Upgrade for Shield Generator now reads - Grants a 5+ unmodified save. Points modified for Shas'O&'el 10 points, Crisis team 10 points and Broadside 12 points.WeaponsVespid Neutron Gun now has a maximum range of 8" and gains no bonus for short range firingUnitsBroadside Special text for Recoil Absorbers should read - may fire a single shot from either of its weapons whilst moving up to 4" at -1 to hitVespid Strain Leader LD reduced to 8Actively updated
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 5, 2008 0:43:04 GMT 1
The new Tau had a run out this eve under the command of Andy Townley, and ended up wiping out Mark Berkleys Legion of the Damned. However it was not simply a case of overpowered Tau, Mark's horrendous luck of late came through - in 7 terminator saves in a row he made 5 snake eyes!!!!!!!!!! His librarians had their usual mishaps facing early deaths, and a bad decision to take a land raider through a blind cloud saw it crash, resultantly mark managed a 6 for the damage on the track. His solitary shot on the hammerhead also saw it fail to penetrate by 1.
Some of the lessons - The Vespids were very effective however they received little return fire - we did however decide to lower the strain leaders LD - 9 seems a little imbalanced. The shield drones worked out very well - very effective but they have to bunch up to get the most benefit - we also came up with a ruling about drones and break tests that's been added above. The Broadside and Hammerhead worked out fine -the automated targeting rule for the drones was particularly notable.
Marks atrocious luck with a small elite force (20 marines, 5 terms, 2 land raiders and 2 librarians) were always going to face a tough time against the Tau. The Legion however did score 6 Vps, and considering how everything went awfully wrong they did demonstrate that Tau are very vulnerable. Also we saw that the Tau army needs to be mobile, it suffers when static due to the nature of the low BS and LD. Finally we have modified the shield gen on crisis suits to being 5+ not 4+.
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Post by zippysguitar on Apr 7, 2008 12:46:52 GMT 1
how to drone works for calculating victory points? ie do they count towards the 50% of squad wiped out e.g. if there are 10 fire warriors and 2 drones, if there are only 5 fire warriors and the 2 drones left at the end does it count as squad at 50%?
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 7, 2008 14:39:19 GMT 1
For VP purposes Drones count as members of the squad - the rules only differ for the purpose of psychology tests.
In your example '5 fire warriors and the 2 drones' that would count as 7 members and not 1/2 VPs.
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 8, 2008 10:59:09 GMT 1
The Tau had another run out last night against Andy Townley's Ultramarines. Our Tau army only has a Broadside and a Hammerhead so its very light on anti-armour options, as such I played a mostly defensive battle, note i failed to kill anything for 2 turns! However the Tau managed a high scoring late game and claimed a draw in favour at 12 - 10, mainly thanks to the hammerhead surviving a predator attack and ten finishing it off in the final turn. Everything seemed to work well with the exception of the piranha's, they are so bulky and with armour 12/10 they are more of a reliability than anything else. The solution perhaps would be a points boost of 10-15 a model (either way 3 will bust the 3 VP boundary as a squad), and putting up their armour to 14/12. They are after all the front half of a hammerhead if you compare the models. Another thing of note was the battlesuits, when you've actually bought the weapons, these things cost around 90 points, basically double that of a terminator, okay they do have some very nice advantages but on the field their size is something of a drawback, and the 4+ on 2D6 is notably worse than the 3+ equivalent. A possible proposal is to knock the points down by around 10 or so so incorporate the points cost with the first weapon purchased [or even have them automatically with plasma rifles and you upgrade from there with a more stable points cost. A better analysis will come soon.
One thing that has impressed is that the Tau rules mean they have to be quite aggressive, however they suffer from relatively poor LD and are quite weak. They are a cross between the Eldar and the Imperial Guard!
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Simon
Unydun
Fantasy & Magic Champion 2005. Leeds co-ordinator
Spongeman
Posts: 693
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Post by Simon on Apr 10, 2008 11:02:28 GMT 1
You've got to remember what you're paying points for with crisis suits - you get better movement and better strength than a terminator, plus an extra wound. They compare more closely with a tyranid warrior than a terminator, given their size.
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 10, 2008 16:00:42 GMT 1
Points breakdown for battlesuits with the current cost allowances. Weapons costs refer to the minimum and maximum points values for the weapons combinations. The final two columns refer to the minimum and maximum points values for the hard-wired upgrade combinations.
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Simon
Unydun
Fantasy & Magic Champion 2005. Leeds co-ordinator
Spongeman
Posts: 693
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Post by Simon on Apr 11, 2008 10:42:56 GMT 1
with minimum weaponry they are actually 60 points (they don't need to have 2 weapons) and then pop on a shield generator and you've got a model 7 points more than a terminator that has better protection and will perform better against small arms fire as they have multiple wounds each.
I think the points cost is almost right on the mark - bear in mind that I spend 300 points on 4 tyranid warriors with voltage fields and no other equipment in my force (as they are the cheapest bodyguard style unit for my bigger beasts but need extra protection to act in this way properly).
Also noticed that broadsides have access to recoil absorbers which is pointless as they can't run at all - this should be replaced with the option for a target lock (theorising that a twin linked weapon counts as a single weapon as the controls are integrated)
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 11, 2008 18:29:49 GMT 1
hadn't noticed that. Target lock could be for if it hasn't moved at all only.
+ terminators have a much better survival rate than the suits, with shield gens i was still getting toasted by just about anything!
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Apr 12, 2008 19:05:12 GMT 1
Had my first taste of the Tau today, alright by what I saw. But the limited model selection kinda hampered mike's army selection.
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Post by tturen on Apr 12, 2008 22:28:11 GMT 1
3/4th edition Tau can bust tanks easily with crysis suits and stealth suits. In fact those units have the best tank busting weapon in the game with the fusion blaster. It's the suits load-out that makes a combined arms Tau army so effective. That and combination of the suits high mobilty. Nasty army and I agree they are like a combination of the Eldar and the IG.
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 15, 2008 10:09:18 GMT 1
The Tau were out and about against Brown's Blood Angels on Saturday and received a 18 - 7 whooping. The key lessons;
The Pirahnas were gunned down utterly in turn one again and the call for upping their armour is seeming increasingly more valid. They are simply too large to be so fragile + one exploded, blew up another due to proximity (maybe 3 is a bit too much for one squad), and careened into my Tau army with a 3" explosion :-o
The Pathfinders failed miserably to do anything - although this was down to a bit of bad luck. The -1 to hit with pulse grenades could be modified as Pathfinders struggle to hit with them
The stingwings spectacularly failed to do much damage but again bad luck counts here. The drop in strain leader LD to 8 played a part as they were fleeing for most of the game, although they were attacking against a Brown banana and had nowhere to hide for 2 turns
The hammerhead failed to do much damage - altough see later as to why, it itself was damaged in turn 3 and destroyed in turn 4 when it went on a VP scoring mission and lost more than it gained for the first time
The Broadside also struggled to do much damage from similar reasons to the hammerhead . . . and it lsot a wound early thanks to the annoyance of the pirahna's. Thats 3 games and the Pirahna's have cost 10 VPs (9 for themselves and 1 for other damage the wrecks have caused) to no return. The smart missile system was, well smart however as it managed to bag a few models. Would really like a 2nd one of these tbh
The Fire Warriors were a little lame, but in a doomed battle basic infantry is always shafted. The battlesuits shots caused some damage to the terminators and took a bit themselves in return, although the fusion blasters struggled against the LR - again the reasons later
The stealth suits were obliterated in the first turn, the horror of space marine BS!!!!!
In general the different components of the Tau are working fine, the issues here are Pirahna armour and Pulse grenade (to hit). However I must point out the rolling beard of brown! A squad of 3 predators with ablative armour & a land raider with double reinforced armour meant the Tau had no real response outside of extreme luck, whence the fusion blasters bouncing of the LR continuously when they would have otherwise penetrated - even the rail cannon struggled. Their isn't a necessity to increase the Tau penetration capabilities as a result.
Brown sucks!
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Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Apr 15, 2008 19:28:18 GMT 1
You can double reinforced armor!?!?!? Who made that a house rule? Do you increase the cost for the 2nd bump-up? Is there an increased speed penalty as well? Man, that's just nasty, especially on a Land Raider. Aren't the treads AV 17? That makes its lowest armor 19! That's really mean. I hope you levy some significant penalties for that 2nd bump-up.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Apr 15, 2008 20:14:50 GMT 1
Luke was the one who set a president by sticking multi reinforced armor on his dreadnoughts. I didn't actually realize this wasnt standard?
Ive never actually used reinforced armor before in my life (i prefer ablative), and will happily stick to one as a max if we cap it.
For having double, I just used +2 armor and -2/-4/-8 speeds.
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 16, 2008 0:02:57 GMT 1
you can have it as many times as you want according to Dark Millennium. We have a rule whereby if any vehicle move characteristics became 0, it would be too heavy to make it to the battlefield The negative speed isn't really that effective, considering reinforcing the armour generally makes for a pillbox anyway. We shoudl ratchet up the basic card ! ! !
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Adoni-Zedek
Unydun
From the Crossroads of the West...
Posts: 551
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Post by Adoni-Zedek on Apr 16, 2008 1:13:28 GMT 1
I thought dark millenium said you could only take each upgrade once per vehicle, though you can have the same one on multiple vehicles!
<finds copy of Dark Millenium, reads page 30 very carefully. Twice>
Okay, it doesn't specifically say you can't take the same upgrade twice on the same vehicle. I would say it implies it, but they never come right out and say it. On the other hand, there IS only one copy of each card, which could be taken to imply they can only be taken once per vehicle. I'd still cry "Foul!" if any of my opponents tried it!
I don't think there's anything wrong with the basic card, but if you're going to allow multiple instances on the same vehicle, I'd say each additional card should cost double base cost. So if you have 3 upgrades of reinforced armor, the first one runs you 10 points, the 2nd one 20 points, and the third one 40 points, so you're paying 70 points for 1 anti-scarab on your vehicle, plus you move a LOT more slowly. that should go for all cards you could conceivably have multiples of. Hunter-killers, ablative armor, etc. If you're going to allow it. Incidentally, what would be the effect of multiple electrohulls? Force opponents to take multiple armor saves? How about multiple Bulldozer blades? Plus, how would you model it? I personally still would refuse.
Okay, enough of my rant.
edit: Okay, I'd say pintle-mounted Storm Bolters (and similar) and Heavy Flamer upgrades (and possibly hunter-killer missiles) would be okay in multiples on one vehicle.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Apr 16, 2008 8:02:16 GMT 1
I'd side with Adoni to say we cap all vehicle cards at one of each type per vehicle.
For most of them its pure common sense, electro hulls, ablative, bulldozers etc would all be ridiculous to have, and now ive seen what a land raider with 2 lots of armor is like, thats pretty much ridiculous too, I'd say just one per vehicle.
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Post by El Capitan on Apr 16, 2008 13:30:01 GMT 1
A full thread on vheicle cards looks needed ! this has gotten a little off topic!
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Post by ortron on Apr 17, 2008 10:59:16 GMT 1
I'm very keen to see how the new tau come along as i have a tau player in my group although he hasn't gotten to a game for some time. Will read your latest set of rules and give feedback. Keep the battle reports going i love em. PS Mike have you done the 2007 tournie writeup yet? I'm really keen to see that.
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Post by James 40K Champ *** on Apr 17, 2008 12:23:43 GMT 1
Might do a detailed battle report on my next battle.
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