Codex Astartes

[Simon]

It used to be painted up in Death Company colours, and I used it pre tournament 2004 I think. I remember it kept legging it across the board but then getting blown up. One thing to note with Mark's close combat Dread is that it can teleport, thus making the close combat rig much more effective as it screened it more as it closed on the enemy.

On the subject of the 2 heavy weapons dreadnought, I'd be a bit apprehensive of putting it back to BS 6, mainly because the main reasons we started to ditch that already was partly because of the emergence of 2 heavy weapon dreads. The points boost that has already been proposed would 'represent' the extra targetting arrays etc needed which would compare to adding a new crewman to man an additional weapon on a normal vehicle. Altering the stats would not be a fair representation.

[James 40K Champ ***]

yeah good points mike.

Hmm.. I dont see any easy way around this, other than to go with Charly's idea of a massive points boost, it will of course deter people from choosing it, but that ain't no bad thing we will all agree.

It is retarded watching 2 HW dreads wondering the table blasting away at everything remotely in sight. They are much cooler bombing about with a powerfist.

[carcerdominus]

Charly you might try this site games.groups.yahoo.com/group/40k2nd/
for some ideas you have to join yahoo groups then ask to be a member of the site (its not hard takes about a few min at most.)
There is a great file on space marines with rules for Angels of Twilight, Black Templers, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Sensei (Grey Knights), Space Wolves, Ultra, Generic and Vehicles. That might give you some ideas. If you dont want to join I could send the file by email.

[Charly]

that sounds helpfull, if you could send me the file that would be cool. im also waiting for the new 5th ed marine book for more inspiration. but for now, more points for consideration are....

land speeders - should they be allowed weapon variants or certain combinations, and at what points cost.

scout bikes - cant see why not, obviously no infiltration rule, just need a points cost.

rapier laser destroyer - finally we can use one! check out the new thunderfire cannon, seems to fit the destription of the rapier quite well.

land raider redeemer - new variant with flamestorm cannons(?) / heavy flamers? and a multimelta, possibly salamanders only to avoid certain chaos players exploding.

drop pods - how many points, or a % increase to the unit inside? how much scatter etc.

[carcerdominus]

Consider it done.

[James 40K Champ ***]

land raider redeemer - sounds bit too good.

Sisters of battle are the specialists there.. and they have nothing at all to compare to that!

[Simon]

There's a few key things to remember about the newer variants on vehicle. The main thing is that the armament works completely differently in the current edition to 2nd. The redeemer, crusader and that other daft one they brought out with like 8 Lascannons on it do not really fit in with what 2nd Edition is all about.

It's hard to say that they should be for a particular chapter only, as then we have a situation where one chapter has a big advantage over another.

The Baal Predator is bad enough (bare in mind in 3rd/4th/5th ed. the twin assault cannons fire 6 times a turn but only at strength 6, with marines getting a normal save against them). If memory serves, we've got it set to ignore the first 2 jams per turn. That needs to go straight away as a jam only has a 1 in 6 chance of occurring.

[El Capitan]

To iterate Brown and Simone, the Redeemer should not find a place within standard 40k. At most as a special character vehicle akin to Bjorn for the Salamanders, but certainly not in standard 40k.

We already had a version for the drop pod rules for the 'Subterra Marines' with a 25% points increase, able to deploy from turn two onwards with up to five models emerging from 2'' templates that scattered 2d6''. The subterra version had an additional advantage of providing heavy cover on account of the crater it created. Drop pods should be very specialist and expensive to represent additional flavour but not quite fitting the balance of the game.

[James 40K Champ ***]

Simon, our Baal rules state that jams DO affect it, only that it can clear up to 2 jams in one turn. So the Baal almost always jams every time it fires. But 2 jams doesn't mean its stuffed. Of course 3 jams is catastrophic.

This means that in general, I was often quite lucky to get to fire the Baal a second time. Its quite a one turn beast.

[Simon]

that's not so bad then, just you who's the lucky git

[El Capitan]

See Tournament 2006 final + avoiding me in 07 and 08 ;D

[James 40K Champ ***]

lol

[Simon]

How's the work coming along?

[Charly]

rite, a few more points for discussion, mostly on the new models for marines...
basically my aim is to allow a marine player to actually be able to use all of the models available to them for their chapter, while keeping the balance of second edition and without making one chapter more powerfull than another, more specialised is another thing..
so the new units that are out there:-

vanguard veterans and sternguard veterans - i would propose adding in both of these as well as the existing veteran squad allowed by the chapter, with both units receiving a leadership value of 9, with the vanguard vets having ws5 and assault squad equipment and the sternguard getting bs5 and tactical equipment, other than that they would be normal marines. points would be around 320 basic cost for 10. of course these veterans would have the same limit as original veterans (as already proposed) of no more veterans than normal units.

scout bikes and landspeeders - bit of an odd one but easy enough to come up with rules, if anyone cares. 10th company army would be interesting tho!

drop pods - these have been discussed before but are now affordable! what do ppl think?

master of the forge - a senior techmarine, a posibility or maybe just a special character.

thunderfire cannon - despite its horrendous cost i still want one to use as a rapier laser destroyer, i think thats the most obvious use of this model as the rules are already there in codex ultra.

chapter master - generic rules for the leader of a custom marine chapter, this would be a "level 5" style character, ie only fielded in armies above 5000pts. stat line would be based on marneus calgar.

gonna put a draft together after everyone has had there say on these rules. please let me know what you think, and post any other ideas!

[Havok]

Having Just started a Crimson Fists army, there are a few things I would like to see out of Lord Charly's previous post.

Chapter Master: Having Pedro Kantor already, this would be very useful.

Sternguard/Vanguard: I'll be wanting to use both of these, along with the other veterans since it fits in with the story line and the are very nice models.

Drop Pods: These are something I'd quite like to see used too, by myself and others.

Master of the Forge/Others: I don't mind most of those models and so would not object to them being usable.

Scout Bikes: Not too fussed, just curious as to how much of a benefit these could be compared to standard bike units.

[Simon]

The idea of the chapter master is kind of already in there - the stat line is identical for Dante as well as Marneus and kind of fits with the Autarch idea for the Eldar (essentially a customizable Phoenix Lord). However, the only thing with this is that characters like Azrael would suffer as his stats are worse - might just be best to scour through as much source material as possible and convert rules over for them.

One thing I'd like to see in there would be Artificier Armour - essentially a captain only equipment conferring a 2+ save which is in all the newer editions plus gives the captain back some of his edge.

I'm not hot on the veterans idea. A lot of the character of a chapter in 2nd Ed. is defined by the veterans - blood angels get veteran assault, space wolves get veteran devastators, ultra's get veteran tactical and dark angels get veteran terminators (effectively a contradiction, but you know what I mean).

Making a "master of the forge" could be easy enough, just figure out the cost of a marine hero and then work out the extra abilities such as enhanced repairing.

Scout bikes and landspeeders work with the principle of the 10th company as well - benefits would be cheaper vehicles, but they'd perform a little worse.

[Simon]

This might be a useful resource for you...

www.scribd.com/doc/3979704/Index-Astartes-I-II-III-IV-Extra-Index-Xenos-Index-Malleus

[Havok]

Dec 10, 2008 21:17:49 GMT 1 Simon said:

I'm not hot on the veterans idea. A lot of the character of a chapter in 2nd Ed. is defined by the veterans - blood angels get veteran assault, space wolves get veteran devastators, ultra's get veteran tactical and dark angels get veteran terminators (effectively a contradiction, but you know what I mean).

But what about other chapters? I see your point about the emphasis of veterans with mainstay chapters as as chapter characteristic backing choice, but this shouldn't mean that the chapter cannot produce and field veterans outside of these characteristic squads.

Also about other chapters? Like Luke's Terran Marines or in my case the Crimson Fists? The latter is meant to have mostly veterans left after the Rynn's World campaign, and I can't see all of these being straight tactical marines just because they are inherently a codex chapter like the Ultramarines.

Overall I still argue for the option to use these newer veterans squad options, and you could possibly even limit their numbers for the more defined chapters, but the option should be there for the commander.

[tturen]

I can see a vet based chapter. Its all just a matter of points and given that marines are already points intensive the additional costs shoudn't cause any balance issues.

[El Capitan]

some personal comments;

vanguard veterans and sternguard veterans - these are the space wolves perk. Sternguard could jsut be the standard veterans entry anyway, vanguard is much more tricky, the blood angels have their veterans option switched (so they cant have BS 5 heavy weapons). With the Crimson Fists they should have more chapter specific modifications rather than adding the option of basically cusotmisign the stats of standard amrines. I dont know the specific on Crimson Fists but if they are mostly veterans then things should go in place of the veteran squads - eg see the legion of the damned as an all veteran chapter.

scout bikes and landspeeders - scout bikes dont count towards support choice except in a branching 10th company army? (give it a different struxcture tree like we do for chaos legions). Scout landspeeder is a bit of a headache, you could just whack heavy flamers on it and have a 1 VP nasty weapon. Needs carefu lthought / or 10th company only option.

drop pods - subterra rules were +25% points to have a 5 man squad emerging. They had a 2d6" random scatter from the target and came into the battle in a 2" heavy cover template (that represented the crater but the drop pod could represent a literal marker and put Initiative tests onto things to get out the way or suffer a hit. funny if it landed on a vehicle. the pod model itself can act as the cover so basically suicide if it lands in the middle of a load of squads. Also cannot run or charge but can move or fire when lands

master of the forge - basically adding the hero tree to the techmarine? not too sure, woudl the master of the forge's fighting prowess really be better than the sdtandard trained veteran marine, seems more like a title and a cool model to me

thunderfire cannon - rls, easy enough

chapter master - bg points only yes. btw these were covered in official riule in white dwarf! Its liek a stat boost to certain characterisitcs for extra points